Episode 5: Feeding Minds
Ousman Umar is a former child migrant who spent four years travelling on foot from Ghana to Libya to Spain. In 2012 he founded an NGO named NASCO Feeding Minds, which aims to create a network of IT centers with computer classrooms in rural Ghana in order to familiarize students with digital tools and facilitate their access to information. He has also launched a social enterprise named NASCO Tech: Code Made in Africa, which aims to provide job opportunities for young IT graduates. He is also a writer and has published an autobiography entitled “Journey to the Land of the Whites” where he shares his life story. He joins us from Barcelona, Spain.
He speaks to us about:
His migration journey
Racism and anti-immigration sentiments in Europe
Addressing the root causes of migration
The importance of education and job opportunities
Exploitation and underdevelopment in Africa
Being a leader and starting an NGO
Horizontal vs. vertical aid and organizational structures
Nature as our biggest teacher - and much more!
Transcript
Intro: We are from the poverty, we have passed through the difficulties, we know what our people need. We are the right people to carry out what can change our own communities. I still believe and trust absolutely that the solution is in the origin. The solution to migration is not in the western world, but rather in our own countries. Be the change you want to see in your community. Be the change yourself. I am the Minister of Education of my country, I am the President of the United Nations of my world. It's my responsibility. The idea is very simple. Let's take action. No matter how big or small, the idea is, take action.
Safa: Welcome back to The Rethinking Development Podcast. My name is Safa and I'm your host. Thank you for joining me as we speak with practitioners of all career stages and organizational affiliations around the world. In our conversations, we aim to rethink ethical behavior and best practices through lived experiences and personal reflections of different guests. Our guest today is Ousman Umar. Ousman is originally from Ghana, but at the age of 13 he decided to migrate to Europe and he travelled across the African Sahara on foot where after four years he eventually arrived in Spain. After spending three months sleeping on the streets, a Spanish family adopted him and he continues to live and work in Barcelona today. In 2012, he founded an NGO named NASCO Feeding Minds, which aims to create a network of computer classrooms in rural areas across Ghana in order to familiarize children with digital tools and facilitate their access to information in order to address some of the reasons that cause people to decide to migrate in the first place. He's also written an autobiography entitled: "Journey to the Land of the Whites", where he shares his life story. Ousman, thank you so much for speaking with us today.
Ousman: Safa, it's really amazing to be on your program. I'm really interested to have this conversation with you.
Safa: Likewise, thank you so much. I really appreciate you being on the podcast. In the introduction, I mentioned a bit about your story and background and what led you to found your NGO NASCO Feeding Minds. But in your own words, could you share a bit about your journey and why you left Ghana and how you eventually started your NGO?
Ousman: Thank you for the opportunity. The fact is that you made a very good summarization of my life experience, my life history, and there are a lot of details, of course, that we can clarify out. But the main idea is that I was born in a very typical, very small village in Ghana, in the deepest forest area of the country. And I've always dreamed of going to the 'white man's land'. Because in Africa, in general, in Ghana specifically, mostly all young men and women, think that Europe is like a paradise, is the solution to all our problems. So as a child, I almost aimed of one day going to the paradise, but I had no idea what exactly paradise or Europe was. As a matter of fact, in my village, I never went to bed without eating or anything like that. I know very well that most people always think that when they mention Africa, the only idea that comes to our mind is poverty, disaster, horrible situation and hunger and all those kind of things. Yes, it could be possible. But we need to remind ourselves that Africa is the second most biggest continent in the world. It has more than 54 different countries. This means that each of these countries has hundreds of problems by itself, and of course, hundreds of advantages, opportunities. So all I need to summarize on the concept of Africa is that Africa is not a country. It is a huge amount of different, different countries, specifically 54 different countries. In Ghana, where I was born, Ghana used to be a British colony. And Ghana was the first African black country that obtained its independence since 1957. And since then, Ghana has always been democratic. However, we have also faced our own difficulties, lack of education, lack of information, and due to this, during my childhood, I left school at the age of five, six years because I used to walk 7 kilometers to go to school and 7 kilometres back, which means 14 kilometers a day to go to school. And after a couple of years, I have to quit from school and help my parents in farming activities and all that. Fortunately, I was quite good in hand crafting. So I used to manufacture my own toy cars. Everything started one day when I was playing in a square with a couple of friends, with our own toy cars that we had manufactured. Suddenly, I saw an aeroplane fly in the sky and I stood up suddenly thinking, how could it be possible that this airplane could fly on the sky without any kind of engine pulling it or any kind of rope pulling it? However, my toy car can't even move one single centimeter without pulling it on a rope. So that's how I started to have an idea about the white man's land. And I really willed to go one day to the white man's land, so I could at least get to understand, I could get a better understanding of how all those kind of things were made. Because the least information we had about the white man was like being white for us was a synonym of being intelligent, being scientific, being a superhero, more or less. So my dream was one day to be able to go to this white man's land. And finally, at the age of 9, I left my village to the city to learn mechanic, due to the fact that people around my father used to tell him that I was quite good in handcrafting, so it is better if he could allow me to go to the city to improve in my talent, my studies, mechanic practice. And so I started working at the age of 9 in the city, repairing trucks, cars, and any kind of machines like that. And at the age of 12, I had to face the most difficult decision of my life, leave my hometown, my country with the illusion that I was seeking for the way to get to the paradise, which is Europe. So I left home, I left Ghana at 12, 13 years. What I wasn't aware of was that from Ghana to Libya, where I was told if I'm able to get there, I'd be able to find a job and receive a monthly salary. I never thought it was so far away from Ghana. Because I was almost illiterate. So I had no idea of how to locate myself in a map. And finally, I end up falling in the trap of human traffickers. We were abandoned in the middle of the Sahara desert for almost 21 good days, 3 good weeks. We ere 46 people at the beginning. After 2, 3 weeks, only 6 of us were able to make it to Libya. It was really, really horrible. The reality overcomes fiction, I can assure you that. He who was able to urinate to drink it back, was the most fortunate during those days. This hell situation in the Sahara desert.
Safa: Wow, as you say, very difficult, very, very challenging situation and experience. In other interviews, you've also shared how people often refer to the Mediterranean sea as being the biggest cemetery due to the many lives of migrants that are lost there. But that in your opinion, you think that the Sahara desert is what should actually be called the biggest cemetery just because of the the hardships and the many more lives that are lost there, even before migrants are able to reach the Mediterranean sea. So could you share a bit about that idea, that thought and what you also observe that humanitarian aid organizations or governments or other actors think about the journey that migrants undertake in trying to cross from North Africa to Europe and what some of the common misunderstandings are, in your opinion.
Ousman: Yes. The Mediterranean sea is the closest border which separates Africa from Europe. So people, most European countries, or local politicians are only focused in the Mediterranean sea. Even though I think it's a good advantage that nowadays people are focused on what's happening in the Mediterranean, but I think the biggest cemetery, as you mentioned, for me is not in the Mediterranean sea, but rather in the Sahara desert. Because as I mentioned, out of 46 only 6 of us was able to survive. But that was in my group, the number of dead bodies we saw buried, which wasn't part of our group, even more than that. So yeah, that's the truth that people don't see. It is a step far from the borders of Europe, and is the most horrible, abandoned place in the world, I guess. Auschwitz - I don't want people to compare that I'm talking about being in Auschwitz, but I'm sure that today in 21st century, the most similar place that I can compare, due to what I've read about Auschwitz, is the Sahara desert. What I'm trying to say is that today, Sahara desert is the Auschwitz of the 21st century.
Safa: In your own journey, it took about four years to go from Ghana and make it to the borders of Spain. Once you did arrive, could you share a bit about what your experiences were with the government or any programs or NGOs that provided support services to young migrants, under age migrants like yourself. What was your experience like at that stage once you did arrive?
Ousman: Yes, definitely, I consider myself one of the most fortunate people in this modern world, I won the biggest lotteries in life, which is having access to live, the right to live in Spain. For me, this is the biggest lottery, we should consider, each and every one of us. My case is absolutely different, which makes me really value the wonderful luck for being alive. As you just mentioned, after 4 years living in Libya, which is another hell, once you overcomes that Sahara desert, I get into Libya. During those days Muammar Gaddafi was the president of Libya, the dictator. Being black and alive, was a crime. Imagine living in a country like this, 4 good years. After all this, I was able to work and raise some money. For a second time, I fell again, in the trap of human trafficking, the mafias. I had to cross the sea twice. Once I finally arrived in Spain, the island of Fuerteventura, we were arrested by the police. Just for the reason of being alive in that specific time, made me a criminal. Why should the police arrest me, just because I arrived in their territory? I really understand and respect totally that if the government considers the borders of the country as his home, he has the right to control who enters in his house. Each and every one of us, when you get to your apartment, you always close your door. If you make the same consideration that the government, the borders of the country belong to the home of the government, he has the right to control. But the way they control us is not acceptable. We have different ways of treating people. I was more or less 17 years at that moment. I was arrested just like a criminal. I was put in jail, in a prison for almost a month. Without doing anything, just being alive in a specific territory. I don't have to steal, don't have to kill anyone, I don't have to do anything. Just being alive and in this specific moment, I had to be put in prison for almost 33 good days. After these days, 33 days, I was told I have the right to stay in Spain because they examined my bones and they realized that my age was between 17 and 18 years. So I had the right, being under age, I had the right to stay in the country. And I left the prison and I was sent to the city of Barcelona, that was 24th February 2005. Alone. I around in the city of Barcelona alone. Nothing. I had to stay on the street for almost 2,3 good months. A Ghanian, I don't speak no Spanish, no Catalan, no mobile phone, nothin. Eating on rubbish, when somebody throw away bread and stuff like that. 2-3 good months living on the street. I never felt so lonely, as in the city of Barcelona. Even in the desert, I did not feel so lonely. After this time, I was so lucky to meet a Spanish Catalan family who ended up adopting me, more or less. Because I was almost 18 years old, they can't make a typical adoption mechanism, it is a kind of responsible parents status, more or less. So after all what I have have passed through, during my first years in Barcelona, I realized that the fact is that the human rights is not respected in these countries. So I knew very well that in Libya, in Ghana, it is the worst. But it's really sad to see that in Europe, for example, whereby people reclaim their fulfillment of human rights and different kinds of other protests and all that , but still, the government doesn't apply human rights to migrants like myself.
Safa: Right, and earlier you mentioned that one of the reasons you left was because you had this curiosity or this kind of idealized notion or fantasy of what life in Europe was like or could provide you. Once you did arrive and you spent time living in Spain, maybe with your adoptive family, or just generally, what were some of the things you observed or realized about life in Spain compared to the ideas that you previously had about it?
Ousman: Yes, the fact is that I felt - in my interactions, when I started to greet some people on the street, I realized that nobody answered to my greetings, and even finally, I remember one woman, she was like, afraid when I greeted her, she was shocked, she gets shocked. I was like, wow, I can't believe it. You don't respond to my greetings and you're afraid of me? I'm greeting you. And you're also afraid? I'm just greeting you. So I immediately realized that the ideas we had, I used to have about Europe had nothing to do with the reality. That's where I learned that lack of information is the worst sickness we have in this 21st century. People could say, what are you talking about Ousman? We have internet, we have a lot of free press, media, etc. But there's still a huge lack of information, especially education. Being a good student, a good doctor, doesn't make you 'educated' person. That's what I learned in my first interactions here in Spain, and especially once I realized that the way people treat black African migrants was absolutely the opposite way (of being educated). I was willing that once I get here, I will be accepted, absolutely, just like any other person. And when I realized that people treat me differently, just because of the color of my skin, it really shocked me a lot.
Safa: Mm hmm. And speaking about these racist behaviors and reactions and sentiments, when you look back comparing between when you first arrived in Spain, and now in 2020, has that changed in any way? Has it got worse? Has it got better? How has it evolved over time?
Ousman: I'm very, very positive. And I always think that thinking positively makes things go better. I've experienced it myself in different, different areas and different, different parts of my life. And I prefer to think that things are getting better. However, there's a lot of work to do. Because still in Spain, just a month ago, more or less, we had these migrants who used to go to a specific area called Lleida, where farming, agriculture is the typical work people does there. And when it's time to collect the apples, fruit and vegetables and all that, people who do those kind of works are immigrants. And more than 200 immigrants arrived in Lleida last month and they were abandoned in the middle of the square. Nobody wanted to accommodate them. Even though they stayed for almost two weeks, and a footballer, an African footballer, who plays in Monaco got to know about them. He called Lleida, or he asked his agent to, and he offered to pay for their accommodation, no matter the cost. All the hotels in those areas refused to accommodate them. It took him almost more than 10 days seeking for hosts. He is a footballer, a millionaire, he has money, he offered to pay anything. But people still refused to give this accommodation to the migrants. So it's really sad. When you see people start putting George Floyd images on their Facebook pages, Instagram pages, Black Lives Matter, Black Lives Matter. But you don't have to go far to be in solidarity. Be in solidarity close to your home. Under your steps, there is somebody who needs your help. So I think for me, my problem is that I think hypocrisy is really increasing too much. And we really need to refocus and reconsider these couple of things. It is very, very important not going abroad to be in solidarity. You can be in solidarity close to your house.
Safa: Yes, absolutely. I think that's very well said. One of the things that you mentioned earlier is that lack of information is a big barrier. And you were almost illiterate when you started your migration journey. When you arrived in Spain, you went back to school, you went to university and eventually you established an NGO that's really dedicated to education. Could you tell us about that experience of going back to school, what your observations were or why you felt that education is such a important tool to prevent young people from migrating in the first place?
Ousman: Right, definitely once I arrived, after all those disasters and horrible situation that I passed through, I started learning Spanish once I met the family. And the more I learned Spanish, I get to know that it could be better if I learn Catalan. When I started learning Catalan, I realized that if I learn to read and write, it will make things more easier for me. So step by step I get know that education is something very important. And having access to information and education is one of the strongest weapons you can give to your loved ones. So the first thing I did was calling back home, telling my younger brother that please, the most important thing you can do is to feed your mind. Don't ask me for money to feed your stomach. If you ask me for money to feed your mind, then I will do my best to support but I will never do anything to feed your stomach. I convinced him to go to school, I paid for his education. Today, he's the youngest candidate willing to access the Parliament of Ghana. So that's how the idea all comes through. Aid, in general, has only focused on feeding the stomach of the poor. And definitely after almost hundred years - I remember that 3 months ago, Al Jazeera published a study carried out by the United Nations where they prove that Africa is poorer today than 50 years ago. After billions and billions and billions of dollars that was dedicated for aid or sent to Africa for aid. After all these billions and billions of euros and dollars, how come that still Africa is today poorer than 50 years ago? Something is not working out. The strategy needs to be changed. We can't continue focusing on feeding peoples' stomach. We need to change the strategy. We need to feed people's mind. They will make their own meal, they will create the opportunity themselves. Give him the right tool, give him education. That's the main reason why when I got to this point, I though that the best I could give to my younger brothers at home, is feeding their minds. And of course, after convincing my younger brother to study, I taught we should do something for other young Ghanians who are still willing to risk their lives, seeking this dream in paradise. So we started to create the NASCO Feeding Minds organization which is an NGO, it is not a vertical organization, it is a horizontal organization. It is not a rich man who has money and comes to give part of it to the poor. No, we are from the poverty, we have passed through the difficulties, we knew what our people need. We are the right people to carry out what can change our own communities. So the NASCO Feeding Minds organization, it's main mission is to give access to ICT education. Talent has no color. I consider that intelligence has no color. So let's prove that out. Once people are able to get access to the right education information, nobody will risk his life or her life, 5 good years passing through all this horrible hell to get to Europe. And once you arrive here, you realize that people treat you just like a slave. I'm so fortunate, I'm really happy with the people I met, people who helped me a lot, who made me who I am today. But all the same, I still believe and trust absolutely that the solution is in the origin. The solution to migration is not in the western world, but rather in our own countries, our homes. That's why I created NASCO Feeding Minds with the idea that be the change you want to see in your community. Be the change yourself. Accusing the President, accusing the Minister of Education, just like my case. Once I had the idea, what I did was contacting the Minister of Education, presented my proposal of IT education. After a lot of attempts, finally the Minister of Education told me that he didn't have the budget I was requesting for the pilot project. For me it was really disappointing. But I thought, I am the Minister of Education of my country, I am the President the United Nations of my world. It's my responsibility that at least only one school could get computers to learn IT. So I think the idea is very simple. Let's take action, no matter how big or small, the idea is take action.
Safa: Yes, absolutely. There are so many important points that you mentioned, but just to pick up at least on one of them. You mentioned how when you first had this idea, you presented it to the Minister of Education in Ghana, and you were disappointed at their reaction. Could you share a bit more about what it's been like to actually establish an NGO, the funding process, the steps that you had to go through to actually make this dream, a reality?
Ousman: It was somewhere in 2010 when I started the idea. I read from some articles that some of the Spanish banks were involved in selling arms to Africa and all that. So, I thought if I'm the President of my country, of my world, it's my responsibility to finance this. If the Minister of Education is not taking it seriously, I should take the responsibility to do it. So I had 6,000 euros in my account in those days. I used to work as a bicycle mechanic, that where I get my money from. So I just went to the bank, when I read the news that a specific bank was involved in arms trafficking and all that, I went to the bank, I cleared all the money, I closed the account. And I asked a couple of friends, they lend me some money. So in 2012, I went to Ghana, I bought 45 computers with my own pocket money, I hired two teachers, I bought furnitures. And that's how I started the organization. I opened the first IT lab in September 2012. And right now, we have about 11 different IT centers, more than 20 different schools use our centers. Since 2012 until now, 20,000 students have passed through our centers, without any government economic support, without any institutional or government support. But rather by just giving public lectures to people, telling people the truth about what I went through and what I think the solution is, which is to feed people's mind, instead of feeding their stomach. So individual donations have supported and make the dream a reality. And of course, we always still need this individual support. So we can continue paying our teachers, maintaining the labs, and all that - to make it really a change.
Safa: Fantastic. So you've mentioned in the past that you're kind of really trying to change the humanitarian aid paradigm, in a couple of different ways. One, of course, is through the IT education opportunities that you're providing, but also as well through the way that the organization is run, in a horizontal management style, not in a vertical style. Could you speak to that a bit and explain more about how the organization is run?
Ousman: Yes. Let me just pull out a small example. For example, right now, we just started a program on Coronavirus, COVID-19, since the last 3, 4 months, and I have been seeking support from different hospitals, to get some support. And I just received a notice that the European Union was creating a specific office or a specific hospital in Ghana as the specific point to control the coronavirus in Ghana. And I tried to contact them to prove to them, hey look, in the area, the northern part of Ghana ,where I have my NGO, we've taken out this action, this action, this action and this is what we've done, this is the impact. And now, if you will support us, we can carry it out there, because I already have the knowledge, the know how, the people, et cetera, et cetera. When I took about vertical aid, the amount of money assigned from the European Union is straight focused only on building a point where the mission is to test people with Coronavirus so they can control the number of infections in Africa and all that, especially in this case in Ghana. So just imagine , these engineers, doctors going to Ghana with a bag full of this money to construct this hospital. On their way, they met children, women dying of other, different kind of needs. But because the money given is focused on constructing and building hospitals for testing Coronavirus, no matter what kind of needs the people have, you can't do anything, the money is given only for building a hospital for Coronavirus. So this is the kind of vertical relationship that I am talking about. That aid is normally just focused on this kind of concept. However, if it is horizontal, that means that any kind of help or needs or support that people need before you can get to the goal, you should help them too. Not only going straight to what the money has been originally proposed for. This is a small example of how aid has been working for the last hundred years in Africa. And the reason why nothing has changed. Africa is even more poor than it was 50 years ago. This is the reason. We can't continue doing aid in a vertical way, it should be horizontal. And I think the first 3 principles of aid should be one, respect. Secondly, it should be the capacity of listening to the other without imposing, just listen. That should be the second principle of aid. The third principle, please ask. If you ask and they don't want to be helped leave them alone. If you ask and yes, they want to be helped, then take action. That's my opinion.
Safa: Yes, I think those steps of respect, listen, ask before action they are so important to think about and really implement. But when you think about NASCO Feeding Minds, and all the other types of organizations that exist in this ecosystem, in the sector, are there other organizations that you think are doing good work or have similar models or that you think are acting in positive ways?
Ousman: Yes, I've met a lot of people, I have had the opportunity to travel to Senegal, meet wonderful people, people who have also passed through something similar to what I've been through. And I always trust more in small organizations, because it's more easy to see real transparency and the real work they are doing. When it comes to huge organizations and big organizations it is sometimes very difficult because the people who is on top, they are deciding what to do with the money. And the people on the floor, working - there are a lot of differences, and sometimes they divert the visions, they have different visions between those who are working on the floor and those who are really deciding what to do with the money or where to get the money from. And for me, it's really sad that aid has turned to something like personal interests. There's no real interest to invest, to use their support to make something really good happen, it is just a way to obtain some kind of interest. Let's just be real. The African continent produces more than 75% of the raw materials the western industry needs to work. 75% of the natural resources for the whole industry comes from Africa. How come we still need aid? That's sometimes my question. How come? There's no real good explanation. It is simple. Let me just give you a very simple example. Ghana used to be the first country who produces chocolate, coffee in the world. Now today it is the 10th country that produces coffee in this world, chocolate. I promise you, I ate chocolate for the first time in Spain. I never knew what the coffee tree, what do they use it for, I never knew it. How come that, especially Ghana, the place I come from, you throw a seed on the floor, the next 2, 3 days, you get a plant. But still the western world said that my Ghana government has to import rice and other kind of basic materials for the local people to get food to eat? Somebody should explain it to me, I don't understand how can that be? The main reason is that instead of using our lands to cultivate the kind of crops and foods we eat, we've been brainwashed that planting this chocolate will give us money, it is better. We have been brainwashed that we have to plant these trees. And once we plant them, they'll come and buy it and give us money. But on the other hand, our government has to import rice, so the money you get, you still use it to buy the same rice by the same multi-millionaire companies that deal with the same issues. So I think, aid can be simple. It's very simple. It's just about the ethical way to do it. Hey look, we are not doing so bad, we are at least giving them aid, we're doing something, but what really needs to be done is stop stealing raw materials from our continent.
Safa: Yeah, absolutely. You know, this type of analysis of the exploitative relationships, the political, larger historical dynamics and power relationships. When you think about that history and how it continues today, whether it's through the example of the cocoa bean crop or in other ways, what do you think about the changes that have happened or haven't happened? And what keeps you going despite these type of structural issues?
Ousman: Yes, look, today, I'm talking with you and it took me almost - I started since 2010, almost 10 years now, since I started the organization. And I faced a lot of difficulties. And still, today, we are able to talk because fortunately, last year, I was able to publish my book for the first time. And I was able to at least let people know about this drama. And the real mission of my organization, which is please let's feed people's minds and stop feeding their stomach. And I was so lucky that an editor published my book. But before that, I went to different, different, different huge organizations, I even received a recognition from the United Nations in 2017 in Geneva, Switzerland. I went there, and I was able to give a conference there and who is really interested to say hey, what this guy is saying is right, let's give him economic support to be able to expand his idea. Who has done that? There has been no real interest. I know very well that I'm really in a hard journey. But on the other hand, I'm very, very proud and happy that however difficult it is, little by little, step by step, there are a lot of people who are getting conscious, or getting to know about this reality, this problematic, specifically, these days, due to the pandemic situation we are facing, people are reconsidering the different, different aspects of our institutions and our systems. And this is really what will make people really know that hey, guys, yes, there are other ways of doing things. There are other ways of creating companies. Just take it into consideration that one of the most known scientific theories about evolution is Charles Darwin. And due to his theory, his discovery, he proved that, yes, natural selection is the main mechanism of evolution. But what people don't really understand is that we can't accept and integrate 100% what Charles Darwin has said to our capitalist systems. It's absolutely unacceptable that if a company is not growing, you are losing. We can't always keep growing and growing, it is not acceptable. I am not good in doctrine, but based on the simple and short information I have read about DNAs and all that, I realized, I get to know that when we are children, our cells keep multiplying. And we keep growing until we get to the age of 18, more or less. After 18 years, our cells stop multiplying, they only substitute those cells that are dying. This means that the nature of humanity proves to us that you can't always keep growing and growing and growing and growing. It is unacceptable, naturally it is unacceptable. We can't expect our systems or our companies to keep growing and growing and growing and growing. We need to rethink how to structure our organizations. Think of the people instead of only thinking of making and making more money and more money, more money. I think our systems, a lot of them need to be restructured. So I think my organization, NASCO Feeding Minds is a really small organization, but with the truth, the passion, and this strong vision of what we are doing, I am absolutely convinced that we will someday get to know people who will really help us get this idea into any corner of this world.
Safa: I think that's really beautifully said and the passion and the vision that you refer to, it's so evident in the way that you speak and in your voice. I noticed that NASCO has kind of also launched a new project called NASCO Tech, where the goal is to also generate work opportunities. So not only providing education and access to information, but also that second step of then providing work opportunities for those students. Could you speak to us a bit about that idea and the process of setting it up?
Ousman: Yes, thank you. Thank you very much. Definitely, as I said when I started, what people really need in poor countries is access to information, access to education. And finally, work opportunities. If I give them IT education, I get a Cisco certification for them, and there's no work opportunities, they will still migrate. They will still risk their lives in the desert, in Libya, in the sea, and all these horrible experiences. So to close the cycle of this idea of feeding people's minds, is the project of NASCO Tech. NASCO Tech is a social enterprise which aims to give work opportunities to these good students that come out of our computer classes, they are computer developers. So what we are working on right now is that we have our first 20 good developers, selected developers in Ghan, after 8 years of work. These developers, all of them are working in different, different departments, different companies and all that. So I went back and call everyone and put them together and said, guys, today you are where you are, because some crazy guy came in 8, 12 years ago and bought a computer and put it in your school. You had the opportunity to touch the computer for your first time. Instead of buying cars, roaming around, big chains, big sneakers, I created a computer lab. So today, you are here because of that. So, what can we do so your younger brother would also have this opportunity? So we sat down, and we decided to create NASCO Tech: Code Made in Africa. As I said before, intelligence has no color. There can be good developers also in Ghana, just like Silicon Valley, just like Bangalore, in India, and different other places. So NASCO Tech is a social enterprise that closed the circle of the whole idea of NASCO Feeding Minds. So, right now, due to lack of social investment, instead of the 20 developers we chose, we hd to break down to 10. And even with this first 10 developers we chose, we are still seeking investment to be able to carry it out. And my dream is to get work done from these developers in Ghana. From any company from Europe, the US, anywhere, get a contract, let these guys do that work in Ghana, give it back to the company, prove that yes, we can give them work opportunities in their hometowns, in their houses, in their tribes, without risking their life, crossing borders, and all that. So instead of investing monies to construct big walls, so migrants can not jump over, please, let's be a little bit more intelligent invest in NASCO Tech, projects like this, and together prove to the world that yes, the migration problem is a huge opportunity.
Safa: Yeah, that's a great way to frame it that the migration so called problem is actually a big opportunity. In your experiences as a leader, over the years, especially as a young person, what have been your observations or thoughts about what it takes to be a young leader and the challenges that it comes with?
Ousman: Yes, there are a lot challenges and as a matter of fact, NASCO Feeding Minds has no workers. Here in Spain, for example, all people working for NASCO, we are all volunteers. So it makes things a little bit more difficult. However, yes, we have workers in Ghana, all the teachers and engineers, of course, they are working for NASCO and they receive their normal salaries. However, it's not easy to manage. I think one of the most challenging part of leadership is the capacity to manage the human resources, to manage the people. Listen, understand, try to be in their shoes when there are problems. I think the most challenging part has always been to deal with people. For me, that has always been my big challenge. However, I know very well that when it comes to big companies and organizations that have a lot of economic resources, for example, when you pay somebody to work for you, then because you are paying him, he is automatically forced to carry out the work or do his job. However, when it comes to volunteering, it is a bit complex, because you can't force people to meet deadlines as you are hoping to have it. And at the beginning they always prove like, wow, they are going to help, they are going to do a lot of thing, and finally, they get a different job or something change in their life, and they stop providing or they can't fulfill their promises. And this is really disappointing. I think, as a young leader, what I think is really challenging is managing people.
Safa: Yes, that's definitely a challenge. But when you think about the work you've done with your organization, the book you've written, what would you say you're most proud of now that you're on the other side of those those dreams, although, of course, there's still a lot of work to do, and your dreams continue to grow. But what would you say has surprised you the most or fulfilled you the most in your work journey so far?
Ousman: There are a lot of things that really makes me proud. When I go back to Ghana, when I go to the schools, and I see these children, happy faces, smiles on their faces, having the opportunity to touch a computer for the first time in their lives, for me, is the most greatest reward I could expect. And definitely, it also made me really proud when I saw my younger brother, who was in the mood of selling the cow, the fouls, everything just to be able to follow my footsteps to Libya, risking his life, and I was able to convince him to step back. When I saw him giving speeches in Parliament or see him taking actions in Ghana, in this aspect for me, I feel like wow, if I die today, I will rest in peace, I have fulfilled my mission. And finally, when I see a lot of people from different places of the world, sending messages, after watching my YouTube videos, or watching our programs, and people send me a lot of messages, definitely for me this is really, really encouraging. Seeing and reading all this kind of messages, knowing that in places like Argentina, Colombia, in the US, people get to know about what I'm doing and my life impact them to change for the better, for me, I think I have no words, to really thank the opportunity of getting to this point.
Safa: That's wonderful. You know, you mentioned sharing your story publicly and your YouTube videos and your book, where you share honestly and openly about the experiences you've had. Do you ever feel a bit uncomfortable by sharing these these personal stories or these difficult experiences, these sometimes traumatic experiences with with the world?
Ousman: I think that each and every one of us we have missions for being alive. And it's sometimes difficult and disappointing if you are struggling without knowing what is your mission in life. And in my case, I consider myself really, really lucky to know that my mission in life is one: give voice to all my friends and people I met on the way who died and didn't make it today to be able to explain their story. Being the voice of all these people, for me, is one of the main reasons that always makes me wake up every morning and happy for being awake. And secondly, working in the source of the origin, to avoid that future migrant victims should fall in this horrible trap. This is the two missions of my life. So when I give conferences, I'm fulfilling the first mission. So yes, sometimes I get people who are not absolutely convinced on what I'm saying and they need to ask questions that are not so accepted and all that, but I have no problem. I don't feel uncomfortable in talking about any kind of thing or about my life. I think I'm quite free. I'm really happy of what I'm doing. And I have nothing to hide. I think it's a huge opportunity of sharing my experiences or giving voice. It is a way that I think all these guys, friends and people who died on the sea, desert and prisons in Libya, their spirits have been talking through me. I'm not just talking about me, I'm just a voice, but the energy, the power, the passion is being put in by all these people who have not been able to arrive alive to explain these issues. So I don't feel uncomfortable at all.
Safa: Mm hmm. The energy that you refer to and all the spirits of your companions and your friends on the journey, I think that energy and that spirit is really evident in your words and the passion that you have about your mission and the work that you're committed to doing. You know, just as a way to wrap up, are there any final thoughts that you'd like to share in terms of the the urgency for changing the way that humanitarian aid is delivered, in your opinion?
Ousman: Yes, of course, that's a really huge urgency for change. And we need to rethink the way of aid, we need to restructure how we aid has been structured for the last 50, 60 years. And for me, I will be very, very happy that people in huge humanitairan organizations sit down and reconsider this mission, instead of vertical assistance, converting to horizontal, instead of feeding peoples stomach, let’s feed their minds. I know, it's really hard to make these kind of changes. But if we want to make impact, we need to restructure the strategy of aid. For me, I think, we are human beings and our nature proves that we need to help others. The Pope Francisco said some words, some 3, 4 months ago that let's all just look at nature. A river flows down for people to drink, but it doesn't drink it's own water. A mango tree make fruit of mango, not for the tree itself to eat the mango fruit, but it creates mango for people to eat it. The sun itself comes out every day, bright, so vegetables can get solar energy to grow. This means that being alive, human beings we live to help others. The nature is a huge, fantastic university for us. We just need to relax, sit down and look at what the nature is trying to teach us. And reconsider these kind of things. If you live only for yourself, that means that you are not prepared to live in this world.
Safa: Mm hmm. Beautiful, that imagery of the nature, it's very touching and a great way to wrap up the conversation. Thank you so much Ousman for your words, for your time for sharing your thoughts. I invite our guests to read your book or go to the NASCO Feeding Minds website and donate if you'd like to support Ousman's work. Thank you so much for for everything
Ousman: You're most welcome, Safa.
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