Episode 6: Disability, Poverty and Society
Shuaib Chalklen is the former UN Special Rapporteur on the Rights of Persons with Disabilities for the period 2009-2014. During his term as UN Special Rapporteur, he established the African Disability Forum and served as its first Chairperson. He currently serves as the Regional Coordinator for their Inclusion Works program. Prior to this he worked in the Office of the President in South Africa and was responsible for developing South Africa’s first disability rights policy. He is furthermore the co-editor of the book “Disability, Globalization and Human Rights”, which was released this year. He joins us from Cape Town, South Africa.
He speaks to us about:
transitioning from being a community organizer and activist to a policy maker
the medical vs. social model of disability
lack of political will for disability rights
implementing the UN Convention on the Rights of Persons with Disabilities
working at the national, regional and international levels
addressing extreme poverty
the intersection of disability with race, class and other forms of discrimination
holding governments to account
building social movements and alliances - and much more!
Transcript
Intro: If I could do things differently - I still have an opportunity to do this, I think - is to really get that megaphone, build alliances with other social movements and continue to fight the real enemy. And the real enemy is poverty or the causes of that poverty in Africa. So that's what I think. I'm frustrated by the fact that we just are not doing enough to mobilize against the economic injustices in Africa.
Safa: Welcome back to The Rethinking Development Podcast. My name is Safa, and I'm your host. Thank you for joining me as we speak with and learn from practitioners of all career stages and organizational affiliations around the world. In our conversations, we aim to rethink ethical behavior and best practices through the lived experiences and personal reflections of different practitioners. Our guest today is Mr. Shuaib Chalklen. Mr. Chalklen is currently working for the African Disability Forum as the Regional Coordinator for their Inclusion Works program. He previously worked as the UN Special Rapporteur on the Rights of Persons with Disabilities, for the period 2009 to 2014. During his term as UN Special Rapporteur, he established the African Disability Forum and served as its first Chairperson. Prior to this, he worked in the Office of the President in South Africa, in the policy and advisory services unit as the Chief Director for Governance and Administration. He was also responsible for developing South Africa's first policy on disability rights. He is furthermore the co-editor of the book "Disability, Globalization and Human Rights", that was released just this year. Mr. Chalklen, thank you so much for speaking with us today.
Shuaib: My pleasure.
Safa: To begin with, could you share a bit about what first drew you to this field of work and how you began to work in this sector?
Shuaib: Well, I'm a person with a disability myself, I'm a wheelchair user. And after graduating from the University of Cape Town, I met some disability rights activists who gave me my first job as an organizer in South Africa. And that's how I got into this work.
Safa: In that earlier stage, one of the experiences you had was working for the Office of the Status of Disabled Persons in the Presidency of South Africa. Could you speak to us about that role and some of the barriers or challenges you faced in terms of creating and implementing those first or earlier policies on the rights of persons with disabilities in the context of South Africa?
Shuaib: Well, the first thing you have to understand about South Africa is that, as everybody knows, we had an apartheid state, and emerging out of that apartheid state, Nelson Mandela becomes the new president. But in fighting for liberation, the people of South Africa, the oppressed majority, they were highly organized. You know, we had a lot of community based organizations, NGOs, and what we termed "the mass democratic movement". Those fighting against the apartheid state, and broadly aligned with the African National Congress, of which Nelson Mandela was the President. So when the African National Congress came to power, there was already a very strong, vibrant social movement of people with disabilities under the banner of an organization called Disabled People South Africa. Now, as I mentioned earlier, that is how I began my work, to work in this field, because I met some of these disability rights activists, in 1990 / 1991, round about there. Now, at that time, in 1990, the African National Congress was unbanned, Nelson Mandela was released from prison and all the other political prisoners, and people are coming back from exile and so on. So it was a very vibrant period of upheaval and change and a different mood in the country. So, the African National Congress also then discovers this movement, you know, of people with disabilities, with branches all over the country, highly organized, because we've been working on this for many years. And the leadership of Disabled people South Africa at the time, met with Mandela, and told him about - introduce Disabled People in South Africa. So by the time Mandela and his government came to power, he was already familiar with this movement. And then when he's in government, one of his Ministers in his office, one of his Cabinet Ministers that falls under the Presidency, was a former trade unionist called Jay Naidoo. He used to be the head of the Congress of South African Trade Union. So Jay Naidoo becomes the Minister. They're all familiar with Disabled People South Africa and when Disabled People South Africa, the organization, then approached the government and said we need a new policy on disability, something that reflects the social model of disability, that puts the focus on what changes need to happen in society rather than the medical model of disability that tries to fix the person, the individual with a disability. So, that's when the government agrees, okay, let's bring somebody into the government, into the President's Office to write this policy and see where it takes us. So that's when I become the person that goes into the President's Office.
Safa: Wow, very interesting. And you mentioned that time period, post apartheid, there was a lot going on, many different issues. What was it like to try to, you know, continue the focus - of course, as you mentioned, Mandela and other colleagues had expressed interest and support for the disability rights movement, but how were you able to continue that effort and make sure that that initial political will continued? And what was it like to actually write and implement the policy?
Shuaib: Well, you know, one of the advantages for me was that I was already involved, prior to joining the disability rights movement in South Africa, I was involved in the anti apartheid movement. For example, when I was a student at the University of Cape Town, I was in a leadership role of the Chairperson of the Black Student Society, for instance. So, various roles in the anti apartheid movement that already made me known to activist, colleagues, and when we went into government, some people were already familiar with me. So it was easy for me to fit in, and work with people that I already knew in the government. In the early years, you know, of coming into power, you must remember that we were not trained civil servants, as we would like to say in the South African context, you know, one day you were in the bush, in the trenches fighting against the apartheid government- which by the way, was a particularly brutal government, that few people talk about these days, the brutality of the system - so, on the one hand, we emerged from the trenches fighting this government, and the next day we find ourselves within government, being untrained civil servants. It was fun, in a way because it was also, you know, I have these amusing anecdotes were I mentioned earlier, the Minister, you know, I mentioned the Cabinet Minister Jay Naidoo, he was the former trade union boss, he is the Minister in the office, so I'm working for him, I'm sitting in his office and the phone rings, and he's answering his phone and somebody says, they want to speak to the Minister. And he says, Yeah, I'm the Minister! Because there was no staff to answer the phones. And then we didn't have resources, you know, we didn't have a budget, the country was bankrupt. And it was just a tough situation. And what came to our rescue at the time was, a lot of donors came in, and I remember getting a computer, a desktop computer, donated by some embassy, a phone, cell phones came in and we got the cell phones and stuff like that. It was just a crazy time. But then over time, you know, we became familiar with our rolls. And then when it comes to actually writing a policy, we had to, you know, do some research on what does a policy paper actually look like? What is it that we trying to say? And, and I worked with excellent people, and we worked in a team. And the people who were with me, were good researchers, you know, they could come up with examples of policy papers. And at the same time, the United Nations at the time, had released a document called the UN Standard Rules On the Equalization of Opportunities for People with Disabilities - quite a long name, we just shortened it to call it The Standard Rules. And this was focused more on the social model. So we could use that UN document as a basis for our policy - so, we were also the first government globally that used this social model to draft a policy that calls for changes in society, calls for changes to legislation regarding education, transportation, labor. So all of this helped us to have quite a progressive policy at the time, you know, before the advent of the UN Convention on the Rights of People with Disabilities. So I remained as a civil servant in the President's office for many years after that. And one of the advantages was that the African Union, the regional, continental structure of African governments, based in Addis Ababa, and they have a rotational Chair, So different heads of state in in Africa, take up the Chairperson position of the structure, and when then South African President, at the time, after Mandela, Thabo Mbeki, I worked for him then, when he became the Chair, I proposed to him that we have this African Decade of Persons with Disabilities. And that's how that structure came about, as well.
Safa: Very interesting. And you mentioned that is at the regional level, so in terms of kind of expanding your work just from South Africa to a more regional role, what were some of your observations or experiences about both the benefits of that type of cooperation, but also, the challenges inherent in that process, in terms of building the regional cooperation and political will on these issues?
Shuaib : Well, at the time there wasn't any political will, you know. It's changed somewhat, because, you know, there was no commitment to improving the conditions of people with disabilities in Africa. There was no political commitment. Besides South Africa, maybe one or two other countries, Kenya, but there are 54 countries in Africa and it was a great disappointment, it was probably the most difficult experience I had, you know, when I started the Secretariat for the African Decade of Persons with Disabilities. I became also the first Director, you know, the Executive Director of the structure. So I had to establish an office and get the funding for it and design the programs and activities and so on. And in the African Union, one of the things they did was that they, with the help of some people in South Africa, they developed a document called the Continental Plan of Action. Now this Continental Plan of Action was basically what are the things that they will try to achieve in this Decade of Persons with Disabilities. All I can say is they didn't achieve much, because they just don't have the will and the structure itself, the African Union was undergoing some changes within itself, you know, the structure of the management and governance of the AU, it all changed. And up till today, you know, it doesn't have any resources to really focus on people with disabilities. And what I struggle with about that part of my work in Africa at the time, and even now, is that people with disabilities are the poorest of the poor. So essentially, our primary challenge, our primary challenge is poverty. Poverty is the fundamental issue we're dealing with in Africa. And poverty for people with disabilities means extreme poverty. To have a lukewarm response from governments, it was just an extremely disappointing experience.
Safa: That disappointment, that lack of resources and also political will and commitment, is that something that you continued to observe over the years? Later on, you were appointed as the UN special rapporteur on disability - Is this something that you found continues to be widespread, even beyond not just the African region, but internationally as well, up to this day?
Shuaib: No, no. That has changed fundamentally. You see, after the adoption of the United Nations Convention on the Rights of People with Disabilities things changed, because governments ratified this Convention. And what the ratification means is that you now report to a committee in Geneva. There is committee - each Convention has got a committee - if you look at the Convention on the Rights of the Child, so there will be a committee that looks at children's rights and that Convention, and countries who ratify this Convention on the Rights of the Child then come to Geneva and they would sit down, present the report on the progress they've made in terms of children's rights in their country. And the same goes for this committee on the Convention on the Rights of People with Disabilities. So that makes a fundamental difference. And this is why Conventions are so important, because it also compels governments to implement laws or to design laws or change the existing laws, so that it's in line with the Convention. So that ratification brings about this change in attitude and it brings greater awareness amongst governments. Because they now have to report, and this changed things globally. It changed in Africa as well. So, that makes it much easier now, to work with governments. So when I was Special Rapporteur on Disability for the United Nations, in that six years, you know, I could go to a government and have a basis to talk. So I could meet with government officials and say, well, I'm from the UN, and you've ratified the Convention, tell me how that's going for your government? What advice do you need, and so on. And I could look around, I could visit hospitals, psychiatric institutions, or whatever, and looking at how people with disabilities are being treated, whether their rights are being upheld or not. And then I write my own report, separate from the committee in Geneva, which I then present to the UN. So that made things much easier.
Safa: So as you say, the ratification of the Convention on the Rights of Persons with Disabilities, it kind of forces governments to pay more attention and take action. In your conversations with these high level government leaders, did you feel you were able to be quite honest and critical about the challenges or the gap between ratifying and implementing that you saw? Or was there - you know, of course, always, there's a context of having to be very diplomatic and measured in the way that the conversations go. So what were your experiences with kind of balancing those two different aspects?
Shuaib: You know, you are touching on something that's really, I don't know what the word is, but I had great difficulty, sometimes, being diplomatic in my engagement with governments. I remember in Indonesia, I observed the treatment of people with psychosocial disabilities in a kind of an institution for people with psychiatric illnesses. And I was so horrified by what I saw, that in a public meeting with government officials and NGOs, organizations working in the area of disability, I, you know, just lashed out at the government of Indonesia and said, what you're doing is unacceptable. And, you know, later on from Indonesia, I went to the UN Regional Office for the Asia Pacific region, which is in Bangkok, in Thailand. And I was speaking to a senior official in the UN, who was trying to explain to me, you know, what Asian culture is about. Because they've heard about this, and, you know, I gave them my version of what happened. And what they said to me is that those government officials in that meeting apologized. And in that cultural context, you know, the apology means now let's move on. For me, where I come from, an apology is not what I'm asking for, what I'm asking for is for you to acknowledge what you're doing is not correct. And that you take measures to respect and uphold the rights of people with disabilities who are the most vulnerable in your society. That's not what I got, I got an apology.
Safa: You know, you mentioned having witnessed these terrible conditions in terms of institutions. And earlier you touched on how, you know, traditionally the medical model was used, but then the social model has grown in precedence. And of course, there's also a difference between disability rights in terms of a human rights framework or argument, and disability justice and also looking at the way disability intersects with other systems and dynamics in terms of gender discrimination, or racism, class discrimination. As you said, extreme poverty is one of the biggest challenges or impacts of living with a disability in many countries, what have been your experiences in terms of trying to also address or talk to leaders about the ways in which disability intersects with so many other forms of discrimination?
Shuaib: The fact that we have the social model and the human rights based approach to disability now does not mean that the medical model is not being practiced, currently. In many, many places, and in many organizations, for that matter, people do not understand the social model or the human rights based approach. You know, it's a constant battle that we still need to win as a disability rights movement. So I just wanted to make that point quite clear. Now, coming to the intersectionality of gender and class and disability, it's just very hard - amongst ourselves, you know, within the disability rights movement, I like to criticize us, you know, I am part of this movement, and I'm guilty of it, as well, but we are really incestuous in the way we operate, we talk to ourselves. We don't have a megaphone, you know, we're very poor at communicating. And we are only now beginning to emerge as a recognized social movement, as one would say. You have something called the labor movement, and in Africa, you know, it's still very active. And you have the gender movement, and so on. But talking about racism, and gender, and class and LGBTQ, all of this, it's very hard for governments, for instance, policymakers, who are primarily responsible for the changes we seek in society, to make the link between the two. And this is because of this medical model, they still see a person with a disability as somebody that needs to be fixed. They focus on the individual, the charity approach. So this charity approach, you know, this medical / charity approach, it is what dominates people's approach to disability, it still does today. So it's not a battle with one. So if we want to bring in race and class and gender, the intersectionality of these things, it is just very hard to make that argument and get somebody to listen to you. Because what blocks their understanding is this particular failure to look at our fundamental human rights of each individual. And that's a struggle we still fighting today.
Safa : Mm hmm. During your time as Special Rapporteur, you were there for quite a many years, in terms of your activities and the resources and support that your office had, what are some of the, as you look back, I guess, some of the successes that you think were impactful, or the activities or the influence that you think that office had over the years?
Shuaib: Being a Special Rapporteur, for me, one of the struggles was and I was placed in New York, at the Commission for Social Development, were the mandate of Special Rapporteur came about or emerged out of that, what I referred to earlier as the Standard Rules, the UN Standard Rules for the Equalization of Opportunities for People with Disabilities. So that mandate of Special Rapporteur emerged out of that document. And then afterwards with the Convention, which means it's a human rights document, a committee based in Geneva, and therefore the Special Rapporteur should also be based in Geneva, but I was still based in New York, the last Special Rapporteur there. The person who followed me is now based in Geneva, and her mandate ends in December. So the next one will also be based in Geneva. And that's an important distinction to make, because in New York, there was no research capacity. There was hardly any resources. So a lot of the activities I undertook, you know, I had to initiate it myself, going to Eastern Europe, or traveling in Africa, Asia, Latin America, I had to initiate those contacts, and also fundraise, you know, and fortunately I had the government of Finland and government of Sweden supporting my activities, so for that I'm grateful. And it made my role very hard. But if I must look back at one of the key achievements of the time, in my role as Special Rapporteur, it's the establishment of the African Disability Forum. That emerged while I was Special Rapporteur on Disability.
Safa: Could you speak to us a bit about what the forum does or how it's evolved over the years?
Shuaib: I referred to my role as working with the Secretariat for the African Decade of Persons with Disabilities, right. And what we were doing was to try and bring about systemic change within the African Union and its members, trying to work with governments on disability rights in Africa. As I said, it was a major disappointment in my work life. But what I realized, also, while I was at the UN, was that I remember, you know, being Special Rapporteur, and then trying to meet or having a met with the African caucus, the members of African states at the UN, and they have their own caucus meetings. And I asked to meet with them to talk about my role as UN Special Rapporteur and to encourage them at the time to ratify this Convention on the Rights of People with Disabilities. And it was a very short time, I had maybe had 5 to 10 minutes to talk to him about my role as Special Rapporteur. And it was also a very, very disappointing exchange, because the lack of commitment, the lack of understanding, to disability rights, you know, the lack of knowledge, you know, they were so ignorant. And it's no wonder that they are called the 'silent majority', you know, it is a joke in the UN system, they call the African caucus the silent majority because they never speak up. So when I came out of that meeting, and also observing the lack of representation, the lack of an African voice in the UN, when it comes to disability, because part of this UN Convention on the Rights of People with Disabilities is that they have an annual meeting in New York, where people exchange ideas on implementation of this Convention and so on. It's called the Conference of States Parties to the UN Convention on the Rights of Persons with Disabilities. So, every year, they have this conference of states parties, and it was just highly organized Europeans coming in, NGOs, governments representing what they are doing, but nothing about Africa. So out of that, I thought that I should start something, you know, and bring civil society organizations in Africa together so that that voice of the people can be heard. And having burned my fingers trying to work with government before, I thought it's time that we go back to back to basics and try and bring out that voice. So then I proposed this African Disability Forum and from there, I got support from UNDP, and the Regional Office in Addis Ababa. And with that support, I was able to establish this forum. So today, it's active in 42 countries in Africa. It's a very strong organization, it's got some challenges to evolve its own capacity. But it's part of an international organization called the International Disability Alliance, thats based in New York and Geneva. So we are part of that alliance and represent Africa in the alliance. And that helps us a lot. So I think if I look back at that time working at the UN, there's not much that the Special Rapporteur can do. I know it sounds like a wonderful title to have - I think what I got out of that role was the establishment of the forum, this African Disability Forum.
Safa: In terms of what you were saying about the lack of meaningful political participation and representation and the need to kind of go back to basics and engage with and support civil society organizations, what have been your experiences, and also just your thoughts about the power of civil society organizations, and the way, maybe historically, and even to today, that they have really been at the forefront and leading social change so that it's not just in terms of politicians and high level policymakers that make these meaningful changes happen, but it actually comes through these type of social movements?
Shuaib: Social movements, by its nature, would challenge, you know, government or the status quo to bring about change. The labor movement, or gender movement, any movement, social movement - people think of social movements in that way. But in Africa, there are particular challenges, because, besides South Africa with its history of strong social movements, there are few countries in Africa that one can say have similar, strong, focused social movements that try to change the status quo. So if I look at South Africa, that's a good example. Zimbabwe is a good example, where people are very active, despite the repression. I see some social movements in Namibia, somewhat in Zambia and Kenya. But the struggle in African countries is that they don't see themselves as being adversarial, confrontational, and a social movement by its nature, at times, you know, because you're advocating for change, and then advocacy would mean challenging governments. Challenging a lack of policy, or a particular policy or lack of expenditure, lack of understanding. So, I don't see much of that happening yet. But it's something we are working on. We are working on how to bring about those in some of our programs in the African Disability Forum. We trying to build that capacity within the organizations of people with disabilities in our member states, in the 42 countries that we are active. So we are trying to build that capacity, that understanding of advocacy, by focusing on particular areas such as inclusive education, providing education for everybody, particularly people with disabilities. It could be on health, anti-poverty measures or what we call livelihoods, advocating for cash transfers, and those kinds of initiatives. So, we're using that to try and build this capacity within this movement. But it's not there yet. Also sometimes the relationship between governments and these organizations can be very cozy, you know, and that is not an ideal state of affairs.
Safa: Thinking in terms of the UN SDG agenda, and the whole rhetoric around leave no one behind and trying to really reach the most vulnerable communities, what have been your observations or thoughts or reflections on how that has influenced the disability rights movement? Or maybe it hasn't, but just thinking in terms of situating disability rights work within the whole paradigm of the SDG agenda.
Shuaib: Before the SDGs, we had the Millennium Development Goals. There, we had no specific reference to disability. At least the SDGs do have reference to disability. More inclusive than the Millennium Development Goals. So what we are doing is that, where I'm currently situated in African Disability Forum, I'm working on a particular program called Inclusion Works. And there, we work on looking at models of inclusive employment, looking at the private sector, and formal employment for people with disabilities. How people with disabilities largely survive now in Africa is either the most common thing is that they drain on the resources, meager resources of their families, or they run small businesses in the informal economy, or they are based in a agrarian set up on a small farm or patch of land and they live with their families. And those who are in towns, like in more developed economies, countries that have some industry like Kenya, or where we are working in Uganda and Nigeria, we working on this program of getting people into the formal employment. But attached to this program is also a disability and development program that focuses on the SDGs. And that looks at inclusive livelihoods and what does leave no one behind mean? Because essentially, we're looking at the question of poverty and disability. And that's were we are working as the African Disability Forum, in partnership with the International Disability Alliance and other members of the alliance. So, other members I'm referring to the World Blind Union and Inclusion International, and so on - quite a few organizations. So that's how we are involved with the SDGs. But again, governments must report on programs, on the implementation of the goals of the SDGs. That also provides us with an opportunity, because if governments must report, then they also have to report on what they've done, for example, for inclusive education, and other anti poverty measures.
Safa: So in that reporting, is it an opportunity to I guess, hold them to account and be in conversation with them about what more needs to be done?
Shuaib: This is the thing though - it's more about in conversation than holding them to account. I mean, those are the two things, you know, key words that you just mentioned, holding government to account means you really have to be confrontational in say: listen, you did not do this. So, therefore, you know, our own report reflects this. And having a conversation with government, it's really not something that's going to deliver any progress. Now, I just mentioned now that we're still trying to build this capacity, and for organizations of people with disabilities to understand that you have the right to hold government to account. And in the African context, that is not easy, because we do not have advanced democratic institutions. So it's not easy. Let me give you an example. If a country in Europe ratifies the Convention, and they violate this Convention and you as a person with a disability and your organization takes them to court, you know, they'll be a court case, and people will look at it. And the court may rule in favour of the person with a disability or not. It's very hard to do that in Africa. There are very few cases of that happening in Africa. Because the legal system and the separation of powers is not defined. So that thing about holding government to account and having a free media, planning, media exposure, it's not something that's prevalent in Africa. Look at the media, it's there to sing the praises of government, or, as you said, to have that conversation, rather than holding to account.
Safa: That is such an important distinction - in terms of your your own writing, speaking of media, you recently co-edited a book called "Disability, Globalization and Human Rights". Could you speak to us about the idea behind it, or the process of editing it and what the the main themes are?
Shuaib: Well, I worked with a very close colleague of mine, good friend and colleague, Hisayo Katsui. And Hisayo Katsui was my researcher, when I was UN Special Rapporteur on Disability, and she was a volunteer from Finland. Hisayo Katsui is Japanese, but she lives in Finland, and she was affiliated with an organization for persons with disabilities in Finland, and that is how she came to work with me. During our time, when I was working as Special Rapporteur and she was my researcher, we both said that after, when this is done, we're gonna write down some things and publish some of what we've done. And that's how the book came about. So it took us a while, because we both are so busy, these things take time. But that's basically the background to the book - the idea came out of our time working together.
Safa: Wonderful. So there are different contributing authors or who contribute chapters to it, what are some of the, I guess, main arguments, or maybe one or two chapters that you are particularly proud of, or just are very important to you in terms of the history and also just thinking about these issues?
Shuaib: The themes that we've been discussing how about how far government is from what people with disabilities want, this is what we've been talking about now, the human rights based approach, where government is in terms of the medical approach to disability and the occasional charity and general lack of respect for the rights of people with disabilities. So that emerges for me quite clearly, in the case studies that are presented in the book, especially Uganda, and the examples in Kyrgyzstan. So basically that runs through the whole book, the question of accountability as well. And that's what we're trying to say in the book, using examples of case studies we actually have done. With COVID-19, we haven't had an opportunity to go on a book tour or anything or do any presentations on the book.
Safa: Hopefully, it will happen. Well, speaking of the pandemic, and the coronavirus pandemic situation globally, many people are speaking about there being a shadow pandemic of mental health challenges. And as I guess, one aspect of disability rights issues, what have been your thoughts? Or what are your observations in terms of how the mental health / shadow pandemic is impacting communities or in general, how it's playing out, as you see?
Shuaib: You know, it's the pandemic and I've been stuck at home myself. But I can just tell you that I live in Cape Town, I have some friends with disabilities as well. And one of my friends lives in an institution, a place that looks after people with severe disabilities. He is a quadriplegic, and found himself living in this place, you know, just like an institution, really horrible place. And I'm against these kinds of institutions, because I believe people with disabilities should be placed in the communities. Whatever money the government spends on paying for these institutions, should rather be spent on allowing people with disabilities to live in the community. And the point about this is that with COVID-19, he finds himself stuck in this institution. And nobody's allowed in and nobody's allowed out - except the staff who work there. So I have not been able to visit him. He's not been able to visit me. We speak on the phone and message each other on our cell phones. But I was just looking at what this experience -because I'm still mobile, I'm a paraplegic and I can use my arms and my hands and get around and drive myself - so I get into my car, put my chair in, and I drive to the shop to get whatever I need and so forth. And for him not to be able to get out, he is just stuck in that place now for months -April, May, June, July, - 4 and a half months has been stuck in the place. What does that do to you? So there are many people with disabilities have also not been able to get the kind of support and services that they need. So it's been a tough experience for everybody. I don't know what the rest of the world looks like. But this is what it looks like for me.
Safa: Over the years, as you look back, or in terms of the different experiences you've had, would you say your motivations have changed in any way? Or how has that that initial passion and motivation that you began your career with, how has that kind of morphed or been impacted over time?
Shuaib: That's a good question. Well, the passion is still there. I haven't done anything except working. From my time in government even you know, it was about how to change the conditions of the people. The fundamental enemy is poverty. And that hasn't changed, you know. So in the beginning of this discussion, I mentioned that I was active in the anti-apartheid movement. And in the anti-apartheid movement, we understood at the time, that the economic system in South Africa was a system of racial capitalism. You had white capitalists and poor black people and that is it, you know. But I think what has changed over time is an understanding. But the point I wanted to make, actually, was that we were always socialist inclined, in the South African liberation movement. Even today, the government of South Africa is the African National Congress, which is the party of Nelson Mandela. It is the Congress of South African Trade Unions and it's the South African Communist Party that's in alliance, that forms the governing party. People forget about it conveniently. So what has changed for me is my understanding of how society works, you know, my own society and the governments and societies that I work with in Africa. What is the system like, in Africa? What is the effects of that economic system, the extraction of resources of poor countries in Africa? Well, not poor, wealthy countries, resource rich countries, but underdeveloped because of the extraction of resources and I would say theft that continues to this day. So how has my understanding morphed? I think, you know, I'm just much clearer about how those things work. And continue to try to make a contribution to developing a resistance to that.
Safa: I think that's very beautifully said and well said. But when you just broadly speaking, think about the process of rethinking the way development is done, or disability rights work, disability justice work - are there any final thoughts or points you would like to share in terms of rethinking the way things have been done for decades and doing them differently?
Shuaib: I mean, I don't know about doing doing them differently. You know, if you're a social activist, you are advocating for human rights and a fairer society, justice, social justice, and economic justice, the space in which you operate - in my experience in Africa, for instance, it is a narrow space that you operate in, because it's tough to build alliances. And I mentioned previously that we are quite incestuous in the way we operate because we talk to each other, because we lack a megaphone. We don't have a loud enough voice. And if I could do things differently, I still have an opportunity to do this, I think, is to really get that megaphone, build alliances with other social movements, and continue to fight the real enemy. And the real enemy is poverty or the causes of that poverty in Africa. So that's what I think. I'm frustrated by the fact that we just are not doing enough to mobilize against the economic injustice in Africa. I'm frustrated by that.
Safa: Yes, those final words really resonate a lot with me and I'm sure with many of the listeners and thank you so much for speaking with us.
Shuaib: It was a pleasure.
Safa: Thank you also to our listeners! We invite you to join in on the conversation.
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