Episode 6: Women Fighting Apartheid
Shanthini Naidoo is a South African writer and former Sunday Times journalist. She is the author of the book which in South Africa is entitled: "Women in Solitary: Inside the Female Resistance to Apartheid" and in North America is entitled: "Women Surviving Apartheid Prisons". The book uses rich interview material to share the stories of four anti apartheid women leaders and activists who were part of “Trial 22” in 1969. They were held in solitary confinement and subjected to brutal torture in a bit to force them to testify against their comrades. They refused to do so, which forced the trial effort to collapse. Shanthini joins us from Johannesburg, South Africa.
We speak about:
how mainstream media depicts women’s stories
the role of women leaders in the struggle against apartheid
the context of the “Trial of 22’ that happened in 1969 South Africa
the intergenerational legacy of trauma
storytelling as a tool for healing
the importance of remembering historical struggles for freedom - and much more!
Transcript
Intro: The same was happening to these women that I'd found in the trial, that they were going to be either forgotten by our history or their stories would have been told in a similar lens, which was not the correct lens, and you can't have a singular lens on any human being because it doesn't tell you the full story of themselves.
Safa: Welcome back to the rethinking development podcast. My name is Safa, and I'm your host. Thank you for joining me as we speak with and learn from practitioners of all career stages and organizational affiliations around the world. In our conversations, we aim to rethink ethical behavior and best practices through the lived experiences and personal reflections of different guests. Today I'm in conversation with Shanthini Naidoo, I a South African writer and former Sunday Times journalist. Shanthini is the author of the book which in South Africa is entitled: "Women in Solitary: Inside the Female Resistance to Apartheid". But in North America, it's entitled: "Women Surviving Apartheid Prisons". The book uses rich interview material to share the stories of four anti apartheid women leaders and activists who were held in solitary confinement and subjected to brutal torture in a bit to force them to testify against their comrades. They refused to do so, which forced the trial effort to collapse. Shanthini thank you so much for joining me today to speak about your book.
Shanthini: Thank you for having me Safa.
Safa: Can you share a bit with us about how you actually got into journalism in the first place? What motivated you to become a journalist?
Shanthini: I would say it was my mathematics marks which were less than what I wanted them to be when I finished school, which actually led me away from a career in computer science, which I was thinking about, that led to journalism. But in the time that I took to realign my study process, I realized that what I really was very passionate about and what I was good at and what my talent was, was in writing. And this is why I decided to study journalism. And I was really fortunate to get into an internship program at the Sunday Times in Cape Town, which is a little bit away from my my hometown of Durban in South Africa. And that is basically how I got into journalism. You know, I went in thinking I would become a food critic and a entertainment writer. And somehow things were turned around. And I'm very glad for that. I went into news reporting and social justice work, as well as being able to do those lifestyle pieces as part of my career, which went on for 16 years at the Sunday Times. And one of the big projects which I worked on, just before I moved on from the newspaper is the result that we have today in the book, "Women Surviving Apartheid Prisons". In South Africa, it's called "Women in Solitary". So yes, that was my journey in a nutshell.
Safa: Yes, you mentioned you were there for 16 years. And even before we get to the book, during those years, were you already having experiences where you were prompted to think critically about the way that women's stories are told, or the way that women are remembered in history? Was this something that had come up even before you came to the story of the book?
Shanthini: Absolutely. I think that when you work in media, and as a writer, you often think about the people who are in your space in terms of interviews, you always wonder, as a woman yourself, where are the female voices here? Who are the, you know, the not the typical top five, which are sometimes you know, cherry picked because they are female, and highlighted because they're female - but what happens to the, to the pipeline, to the people who come in after them? And to also see how are women represented in media? Are they always going to be the stars that we're writing about? Are they always going to be portrayed in a beautiful way, in a sexy way? Or are we also going to look at the scientists and the historians and the people making a very big difference in our world. So this is why I say although I thought I was going in into a very sort of soft feature writing kind of space, working in news exposed me to so many amazing women, you know, all of those inspired me always to do better and to also to watch out for the women who were maybe not as public and as visible as, you know, their male counterparts who are in their areas - to then go and seek them when they did show up and then to find those who are coming after them. And I think the amazing thing about him many women in positions of power and in positions of public work, you know, when they are recognized, they are very vocal about the fact that they must take others with them so that their journey is not as difficult as theirs was.
Safa: Yes yes absolutely. so can you take us back to 2018 when you were asked to report on the funeral or the passing of Winnie Mandela - what happened in that time when you first came to hear of this story, of the trial 22 and the 7 women?
Shanthini: So I have to say the story came to me in more ways than one. The first instance i was writing about Winnie Mandela's incarceration experience and I had gone to the prison where she was held, and in looking at the prison cell and her book that she'd written about her time in prison - one of the few books we have about the female activists of our South African struggle for democracy, I found that the child which puts her into prison was very significant. I'll explain why in a minute, but it was also that there were 7 women in total that were in prison with her, and that we didn't know who they were. I mean I didn't recognize the names, and one of them has a similar name to me which made it, you know, the other aspect. I thought I've worked as a journalist and why don't I know this person's name and it's, you know, it's not a name that is familiar to me. So those are the two reasons why I say the trial found me and the story found me because I'd gone for different purpose. But what happened was that I was also studying for my Master's degree at a university here in Johannesburg called Witwatersrand, and I decided in April, which is quite late in the academic year, to change my thesis to be on these stories, on why are there so few stories of female struggle activists recorded in South Africa? And from there, thought about how to turn this into a narrative and it was very fortuitously and coincidentally picked up by a publisher which resulted in the book, but it was really just to find the story of these amazing women and their contribution to our history, which was I felt not recorded adequately.
Safa: You have also said elsewhere that at that time you noticed how western media particularly was really portraying Winnie Mandela in a very problematic way and that generally you had seen how stories about women and the struggle against apartheid, their stories are remembered very differently than the stories that are told about men in the struggle against apartheid. So can you also share more about what you were seeing other media outlets do or the way that they were covering it, their angles and how that maybe made you angry.
Shanthini: Absolutely. You know one of the biggest media houses here in South Africa ran an editorial after Winnie Mandela died about how she was a difficult person, how women around the world shouldn't say that they want to emulate her and to follow her values - because after she died this was something, I think it was felt around the world by a lot of women who knew her role and who felt very deeply emotional about it because she was an icon. At the same time, she didn't have a perfect history, but then neither did Nelson Mandela or any of the other struggle heroes - no human being has a perfect saintly existence and yes they were various parts of her story, some of which you don't want to glorify it even though the person has passed away, but at the same time I felt like no one had questioned: if there were these terrible things that she'd done, where did they come from? How did a struggle icon like her change her demeanour? How did she become very sort of angry towards the end of her life and things like that? And it was to me completely overlooked, but also people kept remembering the bad stuff without considering her contribution as a mother of two very little girls when she was thrown in prison and also as a woman who was without her husband for 27 years - I mean we always in South Africa mention the 27 years, but it's a lifetime, it's an absolute lifetime to be without your partner. And you know what effect does that have on a person? So why I was also angry about it was for the same reasons that it blew up on social media. And actually there was a book by a South African writer who lives in Australia now, Sisonke Msimang who wrote the further detail of Winnie Mandela's life in a book shortly after she died, because of this collective feeling - especially by females and especially female journalists, that her story wasn't told in full. And then I felt on my understanding of the trial, that the same was happening to these women that I'd found in the trial, that they were going to be, you know, either forgotten by our history or their stories would have been told in a similar lens, which was not the correct lens, and you can't have a singular lens on any human being, because it doesn't tell you the full story of themselves.
Safa: Yeah, the complexities and the nuances. So just for an international audience, could you share a little bit about trial 22, what it was, and therefore what it meant for the women involved?
Shanthini: Yes, I think even internationally, the Rivonia trial, which is the trial that saw the male leadership of the ANC, the African National Congress, which was, you know, at the forefront of our struggle against apartheid in South Africa. It was the trial that saw Nelson Mandela imprisoned for 27 years and many of his comrades - that might be known. So the trial of 22 in 1969, took place 6 years later, it was, in essence, the similar trial, but it was Winnie Mandela's trial, because she was the figurehead in the country at the time. And the women that are in my book: Rita Ndzanga, Joyce Sikhakhane-Rankin, Shanthie Naidoo, who is not related to me, but we do have very similar names, and Nondwe Mankahla - those who are with her in this trial, and a number of the male activists as well. But the point was that these people involved in the trial of 22, were the sort of scaffolding, the secondary people in charge of pursuing the struggle for democracy, because many of the leaders were either in exile or in prison, by that time. So these people were tasked with keeping the movement going in South Africa. And you know, it was a very, very long time, that we experienced apartheid and the struggle for democracy, the various fights. So at this particular point in time, the moment in history of 1969, it was these people who are doing the most important work in terms of trying to get people to come together and fight against the government of the time that was oppressing South Africans. So that is, in summary, what the trial of 22 in 1969 was about. And the reason that they had imprisoned these activists was because they were thought to be, they called them terrorists, the trial was framed as a terrorism trial. But what they were doing was trying to organize people into fighting oppression. And some of the work was -whether it was a messenger, or someone who was delivering printed material. You know, some people were arrested, even for having literature which was banned at the time. So very, very spurious charges. And also, you know, it was basically a way of the government of the time putting anyone who was against them in prison.
Safa: Right, exactly. And so trial 22 stands for the 22 activists who are involved in the trial, 7 of which were women, and you talk about how after they were imprisoned, they were subjected to very brutal torture, put in solitary confinement, and it was very, very harsh and difficult conditions, but that these 7 woman really resisted and continued to resist despite being subjugated to so much hardship and violence during their time in prison.
Shanthini: Absolutely, it's now been a few months that the story is out. And people have said, they assume that it's a grim story. And it's actually not, it's a story of resilience and grit on the part of the women, because remember they were in solitary confinement, which was probably worse than the torture and interrogation and things like that, because they were kept away from their family and their friends and their children, in many cases, and also, the prison conditions were horrendous. However, to me, what was very triumphant about it was how their spirit stood out, how they survived, you know, many people didn't survive - mentally and physically, this kind of prison experience. I mean, even today in the world, it's something that's it's the harshest form of punishment: solitary confinement.
Safa: Yes. And so when it came for you to start the process of writing, you wanted to find them, speak with them. What was that like?
Shanthini: So 4 of the women were still alive, I'd found they had attended Winnie Mandela's funeral, and 2 others had passed away before Winnie Mandela. So when I saw that the women was still alive and still so vibrant, even though they were their late 70s, early 80s, some of them, one of the women - Ma Rita Ndzanga spoke at Winnie Mandela's funeral. And the others attended. I was fascinated to find out what their time in prison was like, and also what had happened to them in the years afterwards. So I had to journalistically sort of try and work out how to find all of them. And luckily, I previously interviewed one, under a completely different circumstance. When I worked for the Oprah Magazine, I'd interviewed Joyce Sikhakhane-Rankin, who's the journalist in the child who was arrested, also one of the youngest. I'd interviewed her about other writing that she'd done and had no idea even then, that she was an activist who was in prison and in solitary confinement or in this trial. So I was able to set up some time with her. And then she led me to one of the other woman, Ma Rita Ndzanga, who I mentioned just now. And I was able to find Shanthie Naidoo, whose name is similar to mine, via her family, because they had a had a family exhibition at the Apartheid Museum here in South Africa. And of course, her mention was not as significant as her brothers, who were also activists and had spent, for instance, a longer time on Robin Island, which is the prison Nelson Mandela was on. So it was a bit of a process, Ma Nondwe Mankahla was very interesting to find, because in all the records of her, including by our government, her name was spelt incorrectly. So I couldn't find her and had to reach out to colleagues in the area in which she lives, the Eastern Cape to try and work out who this person was, who might have been an activist, who had a similar name to the one that was in the government records. And eventually, we tracked her down. And the moment I've managed to contact her, it was probably 8 months after I interviewed the other ladies, I flew down to Port Elizabeth, where she lives, and I managed to set up some time with her. And interestingly, because they are, you know, in their latter days, it was already, the memory was starting to fade, there were a lot of gaps I had to fill in with family members. And because we didn't have records of the trial, and their time in prison, because a lot of these records were destroyed, there wasn't too much in the way of official documents. So I had to sort of build the story around the interviews that they were able to give me from their memories, which as I say were, you know, it was 50 years before, so it either creates a very predictable sort of storyline that they have put into their minds, or they were starting to forget. So it had to reach out to their comrades, friends, people that were around them at the time. And then their children, which was very interesting, because it showed how this had, exactly as I suspected with Winnie Mandela, it had generational impact on these families of people who were involved in our struggle and were imprisoned.
Safa: You mentioned this generational impact, and earlier we talked about really the traumatic experiences that these women activists and leaders had. Was it, you know, difficult from your part to want to or need to bring these up with them, and try to you know, go through this story, despite the emotional heaviness?
Shanthini: It was, it was a difficult time, I had to split it up into, you know, several interviews and trying to get them to feel comfortable with me first and then share what they wanted to share. I still feel that there are gaps in the story, which, you know, maybe they wanted to keep for themselves. But at the same time, it was really, especially for the children, I think cathartic, because they hadn't spoken about this before. Because their parents were sort of - or their mothers rather were not in the spotlight, as much as other heroes or struggle veterans that we have in South Africa, they knew the importance of the role that their mothers had played, but they hadn't interrogated what it meant in their lives. And, you know, apart from one, and it is in the book, you know, in "Women Surviving Apartheid Prisons", it goes from one generation to the next, and then brings it into the modern day. As I said, it's a story that happened 50 years ago, but it comes back to today, and the psychological effects of the imprisonment and being separated from their parents. It's something that I found very touching, it was very prevalent in the children who were separated. I thought about Winnie Mandela's children who would have felt the same. They were now, you know, adults and had their own children and even grandchildren and the effects of that made me think about what effect did this entire process of apartheid, it was a long period in time - it was a process, it was born and then it died. And there was a lot of life in between and and how did that affect people in South Africa? And, you know, looking at also, as it was an academic study, researching other countries would had similar trauma and found that there is science around this, that there is generational trauma that gets passed down in these cases, the difference between South Africa and other countries is that very little has been done to address our psychological history. And I think it's still something that is very relevant for us to do now. And that was also part of the reason for writing the book, is to try and acknowledge that we have generational trauma, which still affects us today, and how to deal with it.
Safa: Yes, as you say, on one hand, this is very much a personal history, family history of the women and their families and the impact of this experience on their lives. But of course, on the other hand, it's very much related to the history of South Africa, the history of the struggle against apartheid, it's a national story, can you also tell us about what it was like to shine a bigger light on just the history of the struggle against apartheid in South Africa? Earlier, you mentioned how some of the, or maybe all of the transcripts and things from the trial were destroyed. And so how that also kind of plays into what we remember, what we don't remember.
Shanthini: So I found, in fact, there were a few documents, which were really helpful, which still existed, but they were done by international organizations. So in the UK, it was the International Defense and Aid Fund, which was defending trialists. So they had some records. And then I found a New York Times article talking about how these activists were re-imprisoned on a very strange sort of law that didn't have much merit. So in the lack of information, it definitely let me realize that, as South Africans, we skim the surface of our history, and this is probably true in in many countries. I think that we are so involved in our social media, what is happening at the moment, what is going on, you know, we had a pandemic, and people were very focused on that. But we don't think about what it took for us to get to where we are today. For South Africans, I think, reading the book, a lot of people have come back to me afterwards and said, I didn't know this history. In fact, I was very interested that there was a very learned and very well respected judge in our country who said: I actually did not know this part of our history at all, and appreciated that it was now told, because it represents women, it represents our history, it represents our psychology.You know, telling stories like this, and others, is a small part of the history, but it's an example. It shows you, it shines a light on what we don't know. So if there are these 4 women who were in a trial 50 years ago, who else was involved in a struggle afterwards? Who else was a part of all these activities that we know very little about. And actually, what we find now in our society is that people don't identify with each other on this basis. When we meet in a workplace today, we don't look at our colleague and our, you know, the person who sits next to us that we are having coffee with as the person in front of us - we should actually be looking at who is this person? And what do they represent in this country, which obviously has a very fractured psychology? Is this person part of that? Should I be more empathetic towards them? You know, instead of passing someone and having road rage, which we do have incidents here and saying something racial. Should I rather think about what this person's family and generations before have been through? And also, if we were not a victim, we were still a part of it. And how does any ordinary South African who may not have family that was involved in the struggle, but was definitely affected by apartheid, you didn't have to be involved to be affected, because many people were quiet and many people were silent. As we look at Winnie Mandela as an example, it's about looking at considering the next person that we meet with empathy and with understanding that they have a history, there is multi generations that came before them, and what would that history be? I think that allows us to interact with people from a much kinder space and a much, much more human space. It was really a revelation to me as well, to dig a little bit deeper in everything that we do.
Safa: Yeah, and so in thinking about storytelling as one way to help us to get to know ourselves in a different way, has the process of writing this book and sharing it and maybe hearing the reactions of people, how has it changed the way maybe you think about the power of storytelling, especially when it comes to the impact being on a national, historical scale?
Shanthini: It absolutely changed me as a person because like I said, the one thing that drew me to the story was the name of one of the activists, which is similar to mine, Shanthie Naidoo, and I explain in "Women Surviving Apartheid Prisons", why that was important. It was important to me because I could see myself in her, not just on a name basis, but also to have similar ideals to someone. And that meant a lot, I think it really impacted me a lot. Because perhaps if I had been born at the time of their struggle, it would have been something that I would have pursued myself, I'd like to think so. But at the same time, it's taught me that I'm not the only person, even as a journalist, who didn't know our history as well as we should, as South Africans, or as any human being on the planet. That it's really important for us to know where we come from. So that was my big lesson. And a big lesson from the book is that the way of us learning about our history, and the way that we share stories, you know, is through the very simple way, which our ancestors did around a campfire, you know, just talking about it, it may be oral history, or it may be written, but it's about bringing these stories back to life and discussing them, talking about them to our children, you know, making videos or movies or blogs and podcasts. So, in my research, which was initially for my thesis at the University of Witwatersrand, I found examples of storytelling as a form of healing in Northern Ireland, and in other war torn countries, including Somalia, you know, a few other places in Africa as well. And then I also found that South African research is also very focused on this. So there is a lot of research being done into this form of healing and storytelling as a way of psychologically bringing our issues to the fore. It's been proven to work. And I think the more of it that we do, the better off in terms of learning our history, but also in terms of healing from it. And there's a lot of healing that needs to be done, particularly in our country and many others. And if this is a very simple but effective way of doing it, then it's something that I'm very glad to be a part of, and also to try and encourage people to do a lot more in the various capacities that we can.
Safa: Mmhhm, yes. One thing that we kind of skipped over a little bit at the earlier stage when you were talking is that a big part of the story is about how these women were resisting the violence and oppression that they were subjugated to during the trial and in prison and their resistance, their refusal to confess, or to confirm anything actually led to the trial being dismissed, and how you know, their sacrifice, their courage, their conviction, really was such a big contribution or a big win for the struggle against apartheid. Could you share a bit about maybe how the women thought about their actions or their role in shaping the history or the outcomes of a lot of the subsequent struggles are just generally the struggle against apartheid, you know, this idea of like their national heroes or their sheroes? So what were their thoughts about that part of the story in terms of their contribution?
Shanthini: I think it's very relevant that they firstly, hadn't really recorded their story, and that they were surprised almost when I I wanted to look at it 50 years later. And what comes across very strongly from all of them, And it's even said in parts of the book that they did not do this for themselves, they did it for their country. They literally went into it knowing that they could face this terrible imprisonment and worse, even death. And they were so brave, and they still did it anyway. And what they think of their contribution is that they still think that it was very insignificant and was not anything to to be sort of sharing with the world because they just felt like it was their country duty. And that was the first thing that came to them. So a lot of humility and really just not wanting accolades or anything in return, except for the freedom which they did get to see.
Safa: Yes that's so powerful and striking and inspiring in so many ways. You know in the process of writing or in the process of doing the interviews, were there times where you know you had to face some ethical issues in terms of what to include, what not to include or the way that you were representing things?
Shanthini: I had to be very cautious around not pushing them too far in terms of what they wanted to share. Like I said if they are gaps in the story, they know about them and they will take them with them, you know. So I didn't push the boundaries in terms of what they would share because it is their story at the end of the day, it's not mine. I had to be careful of - its actually really significant that it was such a long time ago, I had to be able to double check a lot of it and it's not easy to do without records and things like that. So it was really based on trying to make sure that the memories were correct, I mean even the children mentioned things which were really fascinating but I had to sort of go back and when they mentioned a certain person or a certain date, I had to try and double check it, so it was really about getting the facts as close as possible to perfect and I know that especially when you're telling someone else's story, even when we are telling our own stories we may not get everything 100% right, but ethically I think my role was more importantly was to be very sensitive to their experience and to shed carefully on their memory and their psyche.
Safa: Mhmmm and so when the book was ready, it was published, were you able to share it with them out what was that moment like, being able to show them the result of this process?
Shanthini: Oh, it was absolutely amazing for them to see it and hold it in their hands and for them to give me the approval, because like I said, you're telling someone else's story and you don't want to get it wrong - that was the genesis of the book, was trying to get a story correct and it was unfortunately during our South African lockdown last year, so I had to do it all virtually, but I'm very pleased that they are happy with it and that they can now actually apart from having a book which tells their story, which is something they can tangibly hold in their hands it's also for them to realize just how important they are to our history and to to not just me, this person who was trying to learn as much as possible from them- but to many many South Africans. So I think that was for me an absolute highlight of the book and it was also a huge worry to see if they were going to be happy with it because it is a complex and a very lengthy story to tell in what turned out to be quite a slim book. "Women Surviving Apartheid Prisons" is probably 280 pages long and to have 50 years of history of 4 women is quite a lot in that space.
Safa: And in relation to that, so now the book is out there in the world, people are reading it you're getting reactions. Are you seeing this book be used in a context where young people are using it to learn about their country's history?
Shanthini: I would absolutely love for that to happen, I think every young South African, every young person in the world needs to know where they come from and this is where we come from, these are the shoulders that we stand on. I would be thrilled if that were to happen. Whether it will happen, remains to be seen, but I'm very glad that the book has now been published in the US and Canada, because it's got I think universal appeal in terms of recognizing female activists and recognizing female work in history, so certainly I think that would be such a wonderful outcome for South Africans or any young students around the world.
Safa: And I definitely encourage anyone listening to read the book, to learn about this story, this important part of the history of the struggle against apartheid in South Africa. And thinking about how people define or understand freedom and liberation, can you maybe also share a bit about how this work, this process has changed the way you have come to understand the value of freedom and how you know these days we often take it for granted in some ways.
Shanthini: Absolutely, you know, even as a South African and knowing our lengthy struggle for freedom in South Africa and in the world, it really made me realize how many lives were touched in this time. And for that reason to never, ever take it for granted, because it could have gone in many other directions. And we were really lucky as South Africans, for us to be able to see it in our generation, there were many activists who didn't see freedom. And that was really, really sad, you know, and many activists who came out of prison who were so elderly, that they may not have enjoyed it as much as they could have, you know, we had so little time with Nelson Mandela, for instance, when he was released from prison. So it makes me value our freedom more, and it makes me realize how people can contribute, very ordinary people doing very small acts of bravery, collectively, can achieve freedom, you know. Which is why it's really important, especially for young people to make their voices heard, to contribute to causes that they believe in and to, to contribute to making the world a better place, to not sound frivolous about it, you know, it's something that takes all of us. And if there's anything that we learned from the pandemic, it's that the world has to shift. And in order for it to shift, it takes every individual to make a small impact in their own way. And I think these women certainly did it in a big way, and with huge sacrifices, but that they are small things that we as individuals can do towards this greater good that we should be striving for in the world.
Safa: Yes, yes. Now that the book is published, it's out in the world, have you had maybe some really interesting reaction in terms of maybe someone saying, Oh, you know, my, my mother was related to that, or my father or my great grandmother or something, you know, where somehow it led to something?
Shanthini: Absolutely, in fact, during the writing of the book, because I was pursuing my Masters while I was Sunday Times, they published an extract, which told the story in a very brief summary. And it turned out that the granddaughter of Ma Rita Ndzanga was a work colleague of one of my very close friends, and she had no idea who this person was that she was literally sitting across from at work every day, and of her grandmother's amazing contribution. So absolutely, they've been a number of people who have come forward and shared that. And also a number of people who've shared that they have stories to tell also, and that they have a struggle history, or even if it was a different contribution, for instance, in the arts, or whatever it may be. It just made me realize how many untold stories there are. And you know, at a time where we have social media, there's a way of sharing stories in so many different mediums. It's definitely time for those to come out.
Safa: Yeah, and I think as you say that it's so important to say their names, remember them, you know, respect and honor their sacrifices and their life.
Shanthini: Absolutely. So the women I've interviewed are Rita Ndzanga, Joyce Sikhakhane-Rankin, Shanthie Naidoo, and Nondwe Mankahla.
Safa: And so we honor them with our conversation I hope, and also your book, and the exchange of these stories. Thank you Shanthini so much for speaking with me, it's really been great to hear from you and learn about the journey of bringing this story to the world.
Shanthini: Thank you so much for having me.
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