Episode 3: Afghan Women in the Lead
Palwasha Hassan is a women's rights and peace activist who has pioneered many critical initiatives for the promotion of women's rights and civil society in Afghanistan. She has over 20 years of experience working in development and on women's rights and empowerment issues, both in Pakistan and Afghanistan. She is a founding member of several civil society groups, including the Afghan Women's Education Center, Afghan Women's Network and Roazana. In addition she is a two time elected chairperson of the Afghan NGO coordinating body -ACBAR- and a former advisor to Afghanistan's High Peace Council. She also served as the first Afghan woman to head an international NGO in Afghanistan, as Country Director for Rights & Democracy. She was recognized for her accomplishments as one of the 1,000 PeaceWomen nominated for the Nobel Peace Prize in 2005. She joins us from Kabul, Afghanistan.
We speak about:
her experiences as an Afghan refugee in Pakistan
the role of diaspora groups as one of the stakeholders in development processes
working on law reform in Afghanistan
advocating for inclusive peace negotiations
building a feminist movement
challenging reductive stereotypes of Afghan women
the hostility and lack of support by some 'expat' women
being overburdened by activist work and fighting on various fronts
the problematic ways some development policies are 'forced' on countries
the need for more genuine international feminist solidarity - and much more!
Transcript
Intro: Till that time, Afghan women were represented by international or expatriate women. So we were the first ones who were saying: okay, here we are, and we speak for ourselves. Here are what our issues are and how we see our solution. And this is how we want to get together. And we started a new identity for ourselves. But we happened to face a lot of resistance from all those people who were speaking on our behalf till that time.
Safa: Welcome back to the Rethinking Development podcast. My name is Safa and I'm your host. Thank you for joining me as we speak with and learn from practitioners of all career stages and organizational affiliations around the world. In our conversations, we aim to rethink ethical behavior and best practices through lived experiences and personal reflections of different guests. Today I'm joined by Palwasha Hassan. Palwasha is a dedicated women's rights and peace activist who has pioneered many critical works for the promotion of women's rights and civil society in Afghanistan. She has over 20 years of experience working in development and on women's rights and empowerment issues, both in Pakistan and Afghanistan. She's the founding member of several civil society groups, including the Afghan Women's Education Center, Afghan Women's Network and Roazana She's further a two time elected chairperson of the Afghan NGO coordinating body ACBAR and a former advisor to Afghanistan's High Peace Council. She also served as the first Afghan woman to head an international NGO in Afghanistan as Country Director for Rights and Democracy. She was also recognized for her accomplishments as one of the 1,000 peace woman nominated for the Nobel Peace Prize in 2005. Palwasha jan, thank you so much for speaking with me today. It's an honor to speak with you.
Palwasha: Thank you, Safa jan, and it's my pleasure to speak to you.
Safa: Thank you. Thank you so much. So you've been a longtime and dedicated women's rights activist, peace-building activist - could you share with us a bit about the experiences that motivated you to become a women's rights activist and be involved in these issues?
Palwasha: I think my first motivation started when I was still very young as a young refugee in Pakistan. And my elder sister has started some work for Afghan refugee women in Pakistan. I always felt like, despite of my good relation with my Pakistani friend, the school that I was going, I felt some times like, there are things we don't share in common. Because Pakistan society was a stable society and we were coming from a background where everyday we were hearing something destructive in my country, we were losing people. So that made like a difference between me and my class fellows at school. So I always felt like I want to connect back with my community. And I was lucky that my sister had a place where she was working with other women. And it was called the Afghan Women Educational Center, which now I'm working as Director there. This organization was like sort of a community, social and educational place, where Afghan women and children were getting together, and mainly women, and they were discussing their issues, and they were helping each other and stuff like that. So I felt like this is one way that I can volunteer myself, by helping with my sister and other women. And that's how I felt like I'm doing something back for the community where I belong. And I also had that sense of belonging there as well. So I think that brought me in. But the real activism I eventually developed when I was selected or invited to one of the meetings: Beijing Fourth Women's Conference, where I was invited to the Young Leaders Program. And because I was very young at that time, I was so open to new learning and stuff. So so much was happening in Beijing, almost 30,000 women from around the world were there. And I was with this group of young women, and we went much before the actual forum had started. So in this forum, we were like about 16 other countries, or more than that - now, I don't remember the exact number of countries - where young women from different countries came. I was almost the second youngest person in this group. And these women came from Africa, from Latin America, from Asia, and in that time, I went as Afghan refugee from Pakistan. So I learned a lot about the issues that women - and especially young women were facing in different countries. Some of the terms were so new to me, a lot of it was so new to me. For instance genital mutilation, and so many other issues, which I never faced in my culture, or in my side of the world, which has been one of the biggest issues for women elsewhere in the world. So I learned by like how different cultures, different places have different challenges for women and young women, but also, collectively they are fighting it. And this was a process of like mentoring, exchange, sharing and building the capacity of these young women. And I think I learned a lot by interacting with some of the very seasoned women activists and feminists from different countries - from Indonesia, Malaysia, and from Palestine and so many other places. So we worked with these women - but also with younger women, we had this interaction. And at some point, we were given time to plan something as a follow up when we go back to our countries - at that time my home was in Pakistan as a refugee there. And everybody was thinking like how to take these learnings back to their home. And for me, it was very interesting to go back and start something, because what I saw in my side of the world among refugees, that we had several initiatives by refugee women for refugee, but most of this was like more like individual islands of initiatives by different women. And there was no collective thing like, based on a vision to support a bigger cause that could bring women from different walks together. And I thought, like, I will start something like a network, which could bring women in Peshawar, but also in Islamabad, and that was one of the things which I planned in Beijing, and when I came back to Pakistan, within a week, invited some of the school teachers from different schools for Afghan refugee women, and also eventually some of the Afghan women who were working with UN, invited them. And we started discussing like what we can do. And I met this Australian woman who was working with Save the Children at that time, and she gave us more ideas. She had more ideas of like, what advocacy can happen. I also took some trainings in Beijing, there were several workshops and all that. So we started by speaking to more women. And we designed two sets of activity. One was the advocacy training, which I prepared, and she was the one who was speaking about how to create network. And from that day, we started the Afghan Women Network, and we started traveling to Peshawar, we also invited other women. So eventually, some of our members start traveling inside Afghanistan, especially those who are working with UN. And they went inside Afghanistan, invited other women. In this way, we started connecting with each other. And we spoke about issues which was concerning all of us. And that was peace, women's education, and women's human rights. Taliban had took several places in Afghanistan. That was 1996. So that gave us more reason to work more stronger because Taliban started closing women activity, closing girls' schools. And from that time then we started working on campaigns, speaking about gender apartheid in Afghanistan. And you know like some of the International women feminists took interest in our work and they came together, we discussed issues. So we also connected with those other women who were outside our community, but also very closely working with us, and who also were interested to listen to something new. Because till that time, Afghan women were represented by international or expatriate women. So we were the first one who was saying: Okay, here we are, and we speak for ourselves. Here are what our issues and how we see our solution. And this is how we want to get together. And we started a new identity for ourselves. We happened to face a lot of resistance from all those people who were speaking on our behalf till that time. And so we were the first speakers and voices for our community and especially for women. Eventually, we started big campaign and we continued to work for girls education, raising our voices against Taliban and their policies for closing girls' schools. We even lobbied for non recognition of the Taliban government unless they accepted equality for women. We started several initiatives. But then 9/11 happened. This was the time we more focused on the peace activities. While we all this time were against Taliban policies, but we never wanted Afghanistan bombardment and killing of people - we were thinking that there should be a peaceful solution, or any international intervention should happen through talk. So we were the first group who start speaking about peaceful solution of Afghanistan. But eventually, Taliban were driven out of Afghanistan, new establishment happen, some political changes happened. So me and a lot of other women from our group participated in different activities in the process of reconstruction, but also the relief process and new law making. So my focus was how the new constitution of Afghanistan can ensure better spaces and better work spaces and living spaces for women. We thought this can only happen if we make the constitution rightly placed. So we advocated for women's rights, for equality clause, we advocated for more women in politics. So for women quota, which was sort of like came also - because this all coincided with UN Resolution 1325. So there was also an international interest for more participation of women. But it was also on the ground, push and support from all of us, who were not ready to accept just symbolic changes for women. So we pushed for a quota which become a substantive representation of women in the Parliament of Afghanistan. So we got two seats from each province for women and that came through a lot of fighting inside the constitutional Loya Jirga where I and a number of other women we worked together, collected signatures, tried to build alliances there. And eventually we got that. And I remember that Lakhdar Brahimi and a number of other people were telling us: oh, you want more seats than United States of America has? We said we don't compare ourselves with others. What we faced in Afghanistan, probably nobody else faced it in US. And we we think women of Afghanistan deserve more than that. We have more eligible women, we need more empowerment for women. And that can only happen if we have a stronger representation of women.
Safa: Mm hmm. Yes, thank you for that overview of all the different important steps in the journey. As you mentioned, you were living as a refugee in Pakistan for some years. And you were already involved in different initiatives there. And of course, in establishing or co-founding with other women the Afghan Women's Network -which is kind of an umbrella network and within it, there are all these different initiatives and different groups that promote the involvement or the political participation of women on different issues. So at that time, when you were still living in Pakistan, and working there, and being an activist there, what were your experiences of being engaged in these issues from the neighbouring country, from Pakistan? And what was it like to be part of the Afghan refugee group there or the diaspora group there, and be advocating and contributing to social issues from outside of Afghanistan at that time?
Palwasha: I think it was a little bit tough time in Pakistan. There were two reasons. The Pakistani women engagement with Afghan refugee was not very smooth. Actually, there was very limited or no connection between women groups in that time. While Pakistani civil society has a stronger and older history - but the reason was that because the Afghan refugees came through a military regime in Pakistan, which was General Zia-ul-Haq. Martial law was enforced in Pakistan, very military regime was there - so the Pakistani woman didn't connect with us, because they saw us as an extension of a militant government. Also other issues, because of the martial law regime in that time, the Pakistani society had very limited liberation for women groups and civil society groups because of the blasphemy act, for instance, by the government there - it was very easy for small things, for anything they would say against government, one was branded as going against their government or being not patriotic enough or not Muslim enough. So those things stopped very strong relation that should have existed otherwise, between the Pakistan and Afghan women, it didn't happen. For internationals, we had a lot of expatriate women who were speakers for Afghan woman till that time. So they were speaking about our needs, and this and that. So for them, also, this new emerging group who were seeing themselves as independent, and who knew how to speak about their issues themselves, represented their own problems, this was not well received. So from time to time, we faced obstacles and a lot of time, I remember being very young. And, of course, some of us like me, in that time, didn't have that much experience. And here I was facing, for instance, an international who has years of experience, exposure, you know, working with UN and international organization and all that. So she spoke about how Afghanistan is traditional, and how women's spaces are very segregated than men. And I was speaking there, and I was saying, don't give us always 'trainings', for instance. We we cannot fill all of Afghanistan with tailors. We have to give women different capacity, they have to be managers. And she spoke saying that I was actually very 'alienated', I was very different, and I was speaking for 'very limited, young women'. So this was sort of the issues that we had with some of these (international) women, who were till that time, supposed to be speaking about our issues, as our speakers. So that was that. But we in the meanwhile had a lot of other women who were saying: wait a minute, these women are trying to mobilize themselves, they are speaking for themselves and their issues. Let's support them. And so we had like, those women who came with us and supported us, helped us with our - for instance, I remember when we were making our speeches in Farsi or something, they would help us translating it for the international audience in English, for instance. This small steps made a big change for us. Meanwhile, internationally, I remember we started a big campaign, a big fight, because Taliban closed schools for girls, and UN sent a delegation to Afghanistan, and this delegation came and they said: it's okay, what Taliban are speaking, this is like the majority of Afghanistan is like that. So we have to be cautious, we have to be engaging with Taliban. So basically they were saying women' work being closed, or girls not allowed at school - this is not a big deal. We have to eventually work with the Taliban, and they probably will give little spaces to women or girls. But at this point, we don't have to make a big issue of it. So we start writing emails and said: a UN delegation can not speak like this, because human rights are universal. And they cannot say this on behalf of Afghan women. So I think we started like big fights. But this was not easy - if we didn't have support from some of these international human rights activists and others who also took interest with us, because not everybody were like this. So they said, okay, if you want to speak against this, what do you want to say? And we said, okay, this is my words and on that. So we put it into a letter, and they helped us with giving us addresses, and this is how we connected. And just to remind you that emails were a very new invention in that time. So now we have podcasts and so many things that didn't exist in that time. So with the blessing of emails, we were able to reach the UN headquarters, but also many of the big human rights organizations, internationally. I think the woman's name was Angela King, who was the Special Rapporteur of UN at that time - we exposed what was against women and gender in Afghanistan, and how international missions were supporting some of these things. But working also in Pakistan - Taliban was a political group who came into existence because of the Pakistani government support. So speaking against Taliban also meant you're irritating that government there. So it was not easy. Like for some of us, we were also afraid for our families, because some activists who started speaking loud against Taliban, they were thrown out of Pakistan. Or when some people spoke about Pakistan's involvement in promoting this kind of groups - they were deported from Pakistan. And of course, in that time, we had no way - we were not able to go to any other countries - but just living there. So there was a lot of pressure. I remember in some of the places when we were speaking against Taliban, we were not even bold enough to speak it loud. Because we were afraid for our families. And Taliban, of course, were brutal. If you go back to that country with your family, it could have been an issue of life and death. Actually the issue of Afghan women totally died. The Cold War finished, you know, United States and the western world kind of like close their businesses for refugees in Pakistan. So it was so difficult to work. I remember, at some point with Taliban taking over Kabul, a lot of the urban, lower, middle class Afghans who were urban Kabuli's, they left Afghanistan without money or anything, because already, you know, a teacher she was surviving on a small salary, which didn't leave her with savings to come to Pakistan and start a new life. So we had a number of women and children on the streets of Peshawar. And that is when I started a project called Center for Women and Street Children, to help these women who left Afghanistan after coming of the Taliban. The only survival they had was their salaries, and now they had no work and they came to Peshawar. And there was no support for refugees - and because as I said, the Cold War finished, and nobody was interested in women's issues or refugee issues. So there was no support basically, for these people. And for the center, we started with very small things. For instance, for my project, there was no money, we had to collect things from my family and friends to start some of the activities - to start a small production for women, which created clothes for some of the diaspora who would order us to sew for them or stitch for them traditional Afghan dresses, and that created some income. Or we started for boys, some small carpentry and other work, and then worked with the community to help them with there education - so you know, there was no money. And it was too hard. The needs were so huge. And you see all these needs around you, and you wanted to help people. On another side, Taliban started stopping a lot of things. For instance, Nowrooz was stopped to be celebrated in Kabul, kite running was stopped in Afghanistan. And you know, like each person, and I'm here speaking about myself as well, like I had to fight several fights. On one hand, I was working with the Street Children's Center - so that we create little possibility for women and children, to help them with better coping with the situation in Pakistan. On another side, here somebody was trying to impose a new identity for Afghanistan, in a lot of things which were so familiar for us - including Nowrooz, kite running, so many other things that as children we were brought up with, and that was no more a sacred thing in Afghanistan. And that was the time that I worked with a number of other mainly men at that time, worked on a center called Irfan Cultural Center. So here, we wanted to protect the identity of what is our culture, and we promoted, like, publishing books, organizing a place for the artists and other people to bring or exhibit, for instance, art pieces and stuff like that. That was one way of responding to what Taliban was doing inside Afghanistan. Here we were saying, okay, this is our small world and here's how we are promoting or protecting our identity. So this is how, you know, like, several different fronts - I got involved in as a refugee in Pakistan.
Safa: Mm hmm. Wow. Yes, so many powerful examples of your really pioneering work, your contributions to so many of the issues, and as you say, of course, at great personal risk. And so thinking about the activities you were involved with or leading from Pakistan, as you mentioned earlier, it was hard to find financial support or funding for some of the activities and the programs you were establishing. And this was back in the 90s -but just generally, even up to today, what are your thoughts about the support from or the role of Afghan diaspora groups as one of the stakeholders or one of the actors involved in these issues?
Palwasha: I remember at that time, I was very angry with the diaspora. But I think now I understand them more, because that was the time that a lot of Afghan migrated and they didn't spend too much time so that they could have been fully established. Later on, I had a trip, when I went to US and I saw many of the very educated people from my country were now taxi driver, or their wife was a cleaner somewhere. So you know, my expectation came down, because before that I was thinking like, (they were) sort of betraying their own country, their own people - why they left, first of all? Second, why they are not supporting, taking responsibility for others? But I don't think they were in that position. Many of them were not in a very good position, as I'm now traveling, and I'm seeing the diaspora, especially the younger generation, the people who left as kids, and they were brought up in US and Europe, they were able to complete their education, and now they have better work. So now they can afford to give money or support to Afghans inside Afghanistan. In that time, not only were they not be able to help, but sometimes they were also resentful. I remember I had one interview with one of the Afghan diaspora who was working with Voice of America. And so this women was talking to me about the Street Children's Center that I had started. So she wanted to speak to somebody and she learned about the center I was running. And she spoke to me about what I was doing. But the way she was asking me question, I felt like she's sort of like telling me that I haven't done a great job. Like she was telling me yes, yes, yes, you did good job - but in fact, you also created work for yourself. And I got angry in my interview, and I said: why don't you come and create some of this work for yourself as well? And I feel so bad. But now I understand like probably some of them when they heard that some younger generation than them, who didn't go for greener pastures abroad, and instead, they choose to work for others - so that made them sort of like, a false sort of jealousy or competition had started. So some of them were even discouraging us. But I think both diaspora and Afghan inside of understand now, we learned now to work more cooperatively, and support each other. Or in another instance, there was one of these Afghan diaspora who wrote her book, she came from US, and she needed some place to launch her book and things like that. So the Irfan Cultural Center, which I created with a number of other Afghan refugees in Pakistan, so I offered her that she can launch her book here, and actually helped with a lot of, you know - I asked some of the great writers who came from Afghanistan, like Bakhtari and others who were living there, to tell them to review her book and things like that. So we organized a good event for her. And then she was telling me: okay, I want to do something for refugees. But meanwhile, she was not even trusting me! I remember, she took our report, and she was trying to do something directly. So I think that was the very beginning times, the capacity of the diaspora was not that much that they could give something. They were actually looking for their own recognition or for doing something which they can take the credit from. And these are the things which I'm reflecting now back on those memories, instead of being angry now I do understand them more.
Safa: Yes. And so earlier, you mentioned the context of the end of the Cold War, the Taliban coming into power, the changes they brought in society in terms of the role of women, and then later on, after many years of struggle and conflict, when the Taliban regime was defeated, you yourself made the decision to return to Afghanistan. Could you share a bit about that decision and what your hopes were at that time, those early days when you decided to go back?
Palwasha: That was an important time. First of all, even before Taliban was completely defeated, a group of us worked for peace. And so we were the first group of people - I recently had one interaction with one of the, actually Khalilzad's wife, Cheryl Benard, she wrote an article and said,Why Afghan women are writing in Western media? Why don't they go back and fight for peace in your own country and for the rights? So I wrote a letter back in her response, and I said, we knew that the Afghanistan issue should have been resolved through peace, and not by military intervention that your country did. So yes, we started several conferences and campaign and said bombardment of Afghanistan should be stopped. Taliban should be brought to the table of peace and things like that. But nobody listened to us. Of course, we were not that big and influential and the United States was angry and they wanted to bomb Afghanistan, bring a political change. And Afghanistan lost a big opportunity - if we had included Taliban at that time, they wouldn't have been as strong or as powerfully coming back with loads of conservatism that they may bring back to the power. Anyhow, that happened, but we used the opportunity meanwhile. I was excited, coming back to Afghanistan. But coming back to Afghanistan was not easy, because so much happened. Afghanistan was almost like a graveyard. Already during Taliban time, for six years drought and no development. And, of course, after the US bombardment, even things were worse. So here, we were coming back, and almost nothing in my country. Life was so difficult, but I felt excited still to go back, to feel like that belonging because in Pakistan, when we were doing things, there was always like, okay, somebody will arrest us or create problem or its a risk for my family. And here I was thinking, now it is my own country, I can improve things. And so I got two job offers. One was through UNICEF. And one was with this international organization, Canadian organization. And so I asked some people, my friends for advice, and they advised me to work with the Canadian organization, which was giving funding for other small group women's initiatives. And I got excited about that, like now I was feeling Okay, can I can help other women to set up their own organization or to promote their own groups and I will be traveling in provinces. That was a big empowerment for myself. My family was still in Pakistan, but one of my sisters, she came to Afghanistan and I thought, okay, I can go with her and live there. And of course, when we came, in Afghanistan there was no electricity. The banks who are still not functional. You know, life was so different. And in Pakistan, at least, there were those facilities that I could use. And here, I started a new work. I saw my job as an opportunity to work with other women, also travel to provinces. My first trip was to Herat, which was in the west of Afghanistan. And I also traveled north to start working with small groups of women. And like about two years I worked, and then I always felt like I want to go and study somewhere abroad, to UK or US. And here, I heard about this wonderful opportunity of scholarship. So I applied for that. And in the last moment, almost the last day, I heard that they accepted my application. I went through interview process and everything else. And I got the scholarship, I went for my Masters to the UK, for a little bit more than a year. I finished that, I came back to finance, I got job with GIZ - GTZ at that time, which is a German organization. I worked with them. And eventually, again, my previous employer, which was a Canadian organization, they gave me a second job, this time as Country Director, and I work on equitable laws for women. And again, I was happy because I had the experience of working on Afghan constitution. And this time I was working on family law, on Nikah Nameh - which is the marriage contract, and a number of more of other laws which were pertaining to women's issues.
Safa: Yes. And related to these issues of working on law reform. You mentioned earlier how you were involved in the process of fighting for the right of women to be included in the new constitution of Afghanistan. Can you share a bit about your experiences with that and working to have women's voices be included in a meaningful way, not in a symbolic or tokenistic way? What was that like?
Palwasha: For instance, in the Constitution, the international community wanted to have some sort of balanced thing - the whole invasion of Afghanistan happened where women's name was used - of course, they wanted to show that some rights for women has been reinstated. So the put like a quota seat for women, so they wanted a limited number, maybe 32 women or something like that. Then we said this is not enough! Second thing that we wanted was an equality clause, that men and women should be equal in the law. And that was another thing - a number of other articles which promoted women on education and stuff like that. So we were so prepared and before the actual constitution Jurga started, women got together, and I was lucky I was working with a women who was also a feminist and who was seeing this as an opportunity and with a number of other women who we're interested to help Afghan women and bring the experiences of other Islamic countries. So we got all these learnings, prepared. And so when I went inside constitutional Loya Jirga, used this opportunity that women's right be not just like in a symbolic term - just like few women as a token be given some work or other. So we made it more substantive, we worked on substantive law of participation of women. So we got the 68 seats for women through our fight, by collecting signature, by working with men - because the number of women in the constitution jirga, there were 500 total number. So women were less than 100. And of course, a lot of women were brought by men. So maybe they were mujahideen and warlords and others, they brought some of these women who could be their support on things which they wanted to promote. I remember one of the woman, she was collecting signatures to make hijab compulsory in Afghanistan, for women. So this was the time when we were collecting signature for more women to be in the politics. And here, this woman was collecting signatures for compulsion of the hijab. So you know, this was a challenge. So what I want to say is that not every women who are in political processes - you cannot count on them. So among maybe about 100 women, we could have counted on 5 or 7 woman with some background on women's rights. So we work with these women, but we also worked with men, especially those men who were working for minority rights. Like for instance, Hazaras we're looking to have the vice president - instead of 1, be 2, because they were looking for another seat for their ethnic group. Or for instance, the Uzbeks wanted their language to be also a national language. So we had to work with these groups and try to promote our cause. So we got more than 170 signatures, which was needed for a change. This is how, you know, like, how we built our alliances - and that was in the constitution. But eventually, in 2006, regarding the peace process, we heard that Afghan Government, especially the politician, were secretly making their connection with Taliban. And they were trying to start a discussion on peace, and not on an official but unofficial status. So I called a number of my friends and we met in a restaurant and started a discussion on this - that things like this are going on. But we should remember, if we don't be part of these processes from now, we will never be able to influence the agenda for peace - in case this become a formal process. But some of us argued: no, we cannot do this because Taliban were the one who destroyed women's position, basically, in Afghanistan - if we do something this will promote Taliban's status and things like that. But then do we want fight to continue in Afghanistan? Do you think military is the solution? So this is how we brought this conviction among a group of 7 or 8 of us. And eventually we started working with other women, because this was so difficult for a lot of women to see them be part of a peace process, because they were not seeing peace with Taliban as a solution. But we had to think: like, do we promote fighting, killing, things like that - because in fight, we are losing everyday Afghans. And so a lot of women were convinced, but many men in the civil society created problems for us. We lost some of our alliances. And I remember one of the guys told me one day, Palwasha, I always respected you, but you made some big mistakes in your life. and one of it is you're speaking about 'peace'. And in that time, they were not saying 'peace'. They were saying 'peace with Taliban', because for them, peace with Taliban meant like I'm accepting everything Taliban is promoting. Despite that we were saying like, listen, participation in peace doesn't mean that you are accepting what your enemy is saying. But trying to find a middle ground where everybody survives, the bloodshed finishes, but also you make sure that your rights are protected, and civic rights are preserved and all those things. So you know, it took a long time to bring that conviction among women groups and all that. But still we succeeded. And so before the official process, which was started in 2010, already women had enough discussion and understanding that it's important for women to be part of this. So in 2010, already a group of women went to London and they wore green scarfs, they met with Hilary Clinton and they spoke about what women want from peace, and that is preservation of their rights and this and that. So by that time, when the international community and the Afghan government was ready, women would ready with what was their messages, what was their red lines, what they want from the peace. So this is how our struggle from small to big has grown. We helped with capacitating, bringing women in the same level. And this process still continues. But still, I think the basis now has widened, it's not that 8 people in the beginning. They have their own Consortium, they have their own groups. this and that. So the struggle continues. And we still got a lot of achievements as well. The current negotiation team has 4 women, we have in the High Council, women and all that. But what's happened over the years, one of the strategy that men of Afghanistan use is that they try to isolate women like us, women who were the pioneers in the process. So if you see, many of us don't have spaces in those official circles, because they found us not easy to work with. They consider us as a part of the problem - despite that we started the peace movement. So they will try to choose those women who they sort of find 'easy' to work with. But at least we secured the spaces, and they cannot put men into spaces instead of women. And I think that is our success.
Safa: Yes, the the struggle continues. And it's been a long process. And as you mentioned, of course, you've also seen how there are different tactics or strategies that men have used to either try to silence or minimize the contribution or the impact of Afghan women being in the lead. And related to that, could you please share a bit with us about what it's been like or some of the challenges maybe you faced being a women leader in a situation of post-conflict or in a conservative society - also in the context of international NGOs and the UN system.
Palwasha: I think when you are an activist, you actually be ready to overburden yourself. And a times, you can get frustrated as well. So I remember when I was working for this international organization - and I was the first woman to be head of an international organization in Afghanistan - here I had substantive responsibility because I was head of mission for a Canadian organization. And I remember that the Canadian responsible person complained about me when I was in the Constitution. And everyday I was going from like early morning to late in evening, 11 o'clock I would come back to my home, because the discussions were sometimes till late. And while I with difficulty found my way to the constitutional Loya Jirga, and eventually to the last committee where all these jihadi leaders were part of it. So it was not easy. It was a big, tough work inside the jirga - and here my donor, which was the Canadian government in that time, she was not my supervisor, but the responsible person in the Embassy, she was complaining why I'm not working. You know, like, there was a report, where I had to show certain numbers and figures in a national budget format, which Afghanistan government was working with. And I had no assistant by the way - I was the only person in this organization. My other work was work through advisory committees and others. So I basically had no assistance. But I'm so glad that my immediate boss who was sitting in Canada, she helped and she fought for me and she said, like Palwasha is doing an important job, she's inside the Constitution Loya Jirga, this and that. So if I'm missing that sort of deadline, it's not because I'm ignoring my job - its because I was fighting in several fronts. But you know, eventually, like, I remember another time like this came back, that my relationship with the Canadian Embassy was not good. So you know, at a personal level, you get this kind of challenges for your career, your work could be not well understood what you are doing. And to strike that balance is not always easy. And my work with AWN, Afghan Women Network, was all non paid work, all volunteer work. So it was not easy to make that balance. Of course, I was trying to work with other women in AWN and I supported them more on the strategic level, but still, you know, there are sacrifices at the personal life, at your carrier, in all those things. Sometimes I couldn't make that balance finally, being so much overburdened for managing several things at one time.
Safa: Mm hmm. Yes, absolutely. It's very challenging. Related to that, you mentioned earlier how, you know, there were cases or examples or times where maybe the solidarity that international woman should have shown you or other Afghan woman was lacking, or you know, they felt threatened or it was done in a disrespectful way, or all of those things. Could you please share more about your thoughts on the value of international solidarity, or how women's rights activists globally can support Afghan woman in a better way, or be in solidarity in a way that is more equitable?
Palwasha: I think we had to - like we didn't have pioneers, we were pioneers ourselves. So of course, our work was very tough. A lot of time internationals will listen more to internationals. That was my experience in Afghanistan, unfortunately. So they would ask another international: Oh, what do you think, Palwasha is speaking about, for instance, constitution or peace. And they would, instead of asking me or another Afghan, they would go ask another international. Sometime the attitude of the internationals was that they have their own definition of who is an ‘Afghan woman', a ‘genuine Afghan woman’, who is really representing her country, maybe somebody subdued, who is helped by them to do certain work. At some point, I was so disappointed that for them, some of us were not the 'genuine Afghan' because we were not the ones who were just following internationals. Instead, we had our own vision, our own thinking, and all that. I think this thing is still continuing, they would instead work with this newer or younger women who would just listen to them or follow them. Over the process, I remember like, for all this work that we were doing, we were seeing, like somebody who is very new into the activism and all that - but the next day, she was awarded for something, a big international award. So you know, it created, sometimes disappointment that the internationals were trying to create their own icons. And on a number of occasions, they even tried to award some of the women who were part of the obstacle for other women. So we again started another fight and said: listen, if you want to incentivize activism, at least, you should make sure not to damage accountability. And the Afghan women you are supporting or awarding or whatever, if she's creating or violating certain rights of women here in Afghanistan - you're actually finishing the accountability that women should have to their own constituency! So it went even to that level, sometimes. But I think in the peace process, a lot of women internationally helped us or supported us. And they saw it as their own cause. We also have those alliances now in US, in Europe, who work day and night with us. They helped us with sharing our letters, editing our work, connecting with us, creating our networks. So when I'm saying there is no black and white thing, there are people who have been part of the obstacles and issues for us. But there are those who listened to us and they tried to help us. So I don't have like one specific view about everybody. But I tell you, like in my experience, I faced so much problems also from internationals as well.
Safa: Yes, yes, definitely. And so, we've spoken a lot about your work and the experiences you've had. But coming now more to the topic of the development sector at large or generally, what have been your experiences with some of the limitations or some of the ways in which you think development cooperation, international cooperation should be changed or improved?
Palwasha: I have this experience with PRSP, the Poverty Reduction Papers. When Afghanistan was working on their own national strategy for reduction of poverty and growth in Afghanistan - I remember I was working as an advisor on the gender mainstreaming part. And I saw how much Afghan government was struggling, because in the post-conflict era in Afghanistan - which was not really post-conflict era because the conflict still continued, you know, a lot of changes enforced at one time, it was such a struggle. Because the government were not really understanding what is PRSP. Even the internationals who we're working with us, my own boss, I remember, she had no idea and she recruited me especially to work with her, and advised me to first learn what is PRSP, what is poverty reduction, how it works, how gender mainstreaming, and then work on the materials to work with the government - because that was our job. I was policy advisor at that time, and I had to work with certain ministries for them to understand what is PRSP. Because for them to contribute to their own country's national plan, they first have to understand - but there was the World Bank and there was International Monetary Fund, and everybody was forcing Afghanistan to work on these papers, which was so difficult. And I as a young person, also, I was feeling so much under pressure, because the more I was learning and I was seeing like how, for instance, the fund which is coming, the grant money which is coming from international banks, how countries can go under debt! And here the Afghan government and the people who are working on it, they are not even understanding what is this? What is the process? Because so far they received only grants or support from international community. But at some other point, maybe they give us money, but then Afghanistan will be going under debt for many years. So there were all those concerns, so that is one thing. Second, like how they will understand the gender aspect? Because women could be forgotten in the process. And I know, the way the gender and the women part was dealt with was dealt as annexes - it was not a real mainstream thing. So I think it's important that development should not be enforced when the nations are not ready for it. We should give them capacity first to understand and develop their own models. My thinking is like even development is used as a tool of putting underdeveloped country under the pressure, to go with the same thinking which has been decided in some other capitals of those countries which have resources, while the recipients have no idea where they're using this money, and at some point they are realizing that they misused or mismanaged that funding. So empowering countries is important in the process, ownership is very much important, which is often forgotten in the development processes.
Safa: Yes, very important. Thank you for sharing those suggestions. And so, you know, now - this week as we publish the episode, it's International Women's Day. And I just wanted to ask, is there anything maybe you'd like to add in terms of the context of international Women's Day, or your thoughts on international solidarity with women and girls around the world?
Palwasha: For me, 8 March is solidarity for women around the globe. And the real solidarity is when we break all those gaps between us and we consider each other's problems as my problem - not by helping Afghan women - don't help Afghan women, help yourself by trying to understand us and stand with us, where we want to go. And I think we have come a long way. And it's important for all of us to stand together and fight the fight which is in front of us as women. Women everywhere in the world are still struggling, we have to create that world where everybody's equal, and the improvement of environment, in improvement of the human life. And that can only happen in real solidarity.
Safa: Mm hmm. Beautifully said. Thank you. Thank you so much Palwasha Jan. Thank you for all of your insights, all of your reflections. I really, really appreciate it. It's really been an honor to speak with you.
Palwasha: Thank you, Safa Jan.
Safa: Thank you so much. Thank you also to our listeners for tuning in and supporting the podcast. I invite you to join in on the conversation by going to our website, hitting the send us a voice message button and sharing some of your thoughts with us. Don't forget to subscribe to the podcast on your preferred podcast player, rate and review past episodes and share our conversations with your friends. You can also keep up to date with our latest episodes and offerings by signing up for our newsletter on our website and following us on social media. On our website, you can also find a donation link where you can choose either a one time donation or reoccurring monthly donation option to help us cover our production costs. Thank you again for tuning in. I look forward to continuing this conversation with you all next time. Until then take care.
