Episode 8: Working with Bias
Mahrukh 'Maya' Hasan is as a designer, researcher and strategic advisor who helps social impact organizations build joyful, equitable and innovative teams. She is the Founder and Director of Azura Labs, a social design and research studio that builds the capacity of international NGOs and UN agencies. She is also on the leadership team of the “50 Shades of Aid” facebook group, a global support and advocacy network of more than 25,000 humanitarian aid workers. Recently Maya launched the Fearless Project, a diversity, equity and inclusion firm, which aims to champion trust, belonging and joy in the social impact sector. She joins us from Chiang Mai, Thailand.
We speak about:
entry barriers in the sector
research ethics and design justice
moving beyond the binary of quantitative and qualitative data
diversity, equity and inclusion
the culture of fear amongst leaders
emotional agility
learning from other sectors - and much more!
Transcript
Intro: I think one of the common sentiments has been in our sector that: we do good, therefore, we are good. And that is completely wrong, right? And so one of the things that I say a lot is the question about racism, for example, it's not a question of are we racist? It's how racist are we? So all of us have these biases that we've grown up with because we live in a society that is inherently biased.
Safa: Welcome back to the Rethinking Development Podcast. My name is Safa, and I'm your host. Thank you for joining me as we speak with and learn from practitioners of all career stages and organizational affiliations around the world. In our conversations, we aim to rethink ethical behavior and best practices through the lived experiences and personal reflections of different guests. Today, I'm in conversation with Mahrukh 'Maya' Hasan. Maya is as a designer, researcher and strategic advisor who helps social impact organizations build joyful, equitable and innovative teams. She's the Founder and Director of Azura Labs, a social design and research studio that builds the capacity of international NGOs and UN agencies serving communities in Sub Saharan Africa and South and Southeast Asia. She's also on the leadership team of the 50 Shades of Aid facebook group, a global support and advocacy network of more than 25,000 humanitarian aid workers. Last March, Maya founded the Fearless Project, a diversity, equity and Inclusion firm, which aims to champion trust, belonging and joy in the social impact sector. Maya, thank you so much for joining me today. It's great to have the chance to speak with you.
Mahrukh: Thanks for inviting me, Safa. It's a pleasure to be here.
Safa: Thank you. So you know, usually I like to start the conversation with guests is upbringing your background, or some of the earlier experiences in your life that maybe sparked an interest in you in terms of working in the sector?
Mahrukh: Yeah, that's a great question. As you know, everything is kind of determined from childhood, isn't it? And it's funny since childhood, I'd say I've had this natural curiosity for pretty much everything, and this impatient drive to contribute some good in the world, right. So I was also that kid who had no idea who she wanted to be when she grew up, because everything was so interesting. But that said, my parents really shaped my values and worldview. And I think observing them led me down this path of being a humanitarian and a social impact professional. In particular, my parents were active members of the Muslim American community. So I observed my mother doing a lot of volunteer work, and my father donating a lot of time and money to community causes. And so I observed this throughout my childhood, and I would say that these values of social justice and giving back were really ingrained in me from a young age, and it seemed like everything grew from there. I might add also that my family background of being refugees, and immigrants has a lot to do with it and my interest in the profession. I was born and grew up in the US. My parents were born in India and Pakistan, respectively. And their great grandparents were from Afghanistan. And it's funny, I'm now living in Thailand. So it seems migration in some ways is in my blood.
Safa: Mmhmm. Yeah. Thank you for sharing that. So you studied International Relations and Languages. And then you had some earlier work experiences, for example, as a Communications Intern with Transparency International in Senegal. So in those early years, could you tell us about some of the experiences you had that kind of began to shape how you understood and how you began to relate to the work that's happening in the sector?
Mahrukh: Absolutely. I would say that that natural curiosity that I mentioned earlier, meant in some ways that I was born to be a researcher. And so that's really the professional identity that really resonates with me. So asking questions and looking to learn more. And so one of the things that I really wanted or rather needed to do was to see the world, understand how it works. So as you mentioned, I studied International Affairs at University. I studied abroad in Senegal, in West Africa, and I also interned at Transparency International. My first job out of University was for a Muslim American civil rights organization in the San Francisco Bay Area. And after that, I worked for a few years in Washington DC for various international research institutes and think tanks, following that I went to grad school at Johns Hopkins SAIS, and after that I actually struggled for a while to find a job until one day I accepted a fellowship and I was on a plane to Afghanistan for my real, my first real job in a conflict zone. So one thing led to another and then I was going from one humanitarian crisis to another, mostly in Sub Saharan Africa and South Asia, so one thing I'd like to be clear about though, especially for the young people or for those that are transitioning careers who might be listening, that it was not easy to break into this field. There are a lot of barriers, especially for those who are not well connected and so I would like to say that I wouldn't be here, where I am today if it wasn't for a lot of help from a lot of people. So as part of my practice I try to pay it forward and and give back that mentoring and advice whenever I can.
Safa: Mhmm, thank you for you know bringing that up and you mentioned these barriers that exist. Could you speak to that a bit more in terms of what you see as some of these structural issues that really limit some people from being able to easily or more easily get a foot in the door?
Mahrukh: Absolutely. I think access and networks play a really big role and so I have two university degrees, one is the bachelors, one of the masters. My undergraduate is in International Affairs and my graduate school as well, and so in some ways I was naturally already connected - although people who perhaps didn't study those courses are not as connected, and even then a lot of my colleagues, a lot of my classmates, didn't go on in the end to pursue those careers because something always got in the way. They weren't as well connected as they needed to be. I think my time in Washington DC, really that location made a huge difference because it was just people that I was naturally connected to over time. But I wasn't able to be an unpaid intern, right. I had to work, I had to do paid internships, or take certain jobs that I maybe would not have taken if I was in a better financial situation. So cost and the financial cost for attending some of these universities, for being part of certain networks, is also very high. So yeah, it's a it's a really tough one but those are a few of the things that I would share in terms of access barriers and network constraints.
Safa: Yes, so you mentioned earlier you accepted this fellowship in Afghanistan and this began kind of a series of different work experiences in various countries. So during that time how did you notice maybe your own positionality, your own kind of social location shape or influence how you were working, how others were seeing you, the interactions you were having? Were you already kind of from that earlier stage having this reflective approach and thinking about your own positionality in the work?
Mahrukh: Yeah and I would say that I am privileged in so many ways, in just as many ways as perhaps that I'm marginalized and underrepresented. And so I think it's important for me to be honest about that level of power and privilege as someone with an American passport, as someone who's a fluent speaker of english, as someone who has a master's education - all of these things and all these opportunities that I have. And so I'm constantly facing that reality and again trying to observe that in others where others perhaps don't meet those same identities and those criteria. At the same time, I'm overlooked in other identities right, I'm a woman, I'm also Pakistani, I'm a Muslim, I'm a trauma survivor, I'm on the autism spectrum - there are many, many other categories in which I'm not so privileged and I see challenges and barriers and so in the course of my career I found it increasingly difficult over time to be my authentic self and to express myself fully. But mostly I would say that I saw it as almost impossible for my black, my African refugee colleagues for example, other colleagues - people with disabilities, colleagues with mental health challenges, I've observed so many friends and colleagues being passed over for promotions or alternatively promoted without any support, essentially set up to fail. And I frequently been in the interesting position in which I have friends and colleagues confide in me about feeling unsafe and treated differently. And I myself have experienced sexual harassment on the job with no support or encouragement to report it. So I would say that as humanitarian organizations if we can't even take care of our own staff, what makes us think that the fruits of our labor will come back anything but rotten, right? The communities that depend on us are 10 to 100 times more marginalized than our staff. So I see that those power asymmetries in multiple locations and I see it as our duty to to help.
Safa: Right absolutely, so bringing our attention to this topic of work culture and the kind of work environment. In those work experiences you were having in humanitarian settings, in complex settings, were there specific moments where you kind of came to think really critically about how everyone was relating to each other or were there moments where you were like: oh wow this is the dynamic, this is so problematic. Is there a specific experience that comes to mind or this is just like a gradual build up over time?
Mahrukh: Yeah, I think there's a few different examples that I would say. One is as a researcher and as someone who has spent the majority of my career as a humanitarian being based full-time in countries, post-conflict settings or humanitarian settings in Sub Saharan Africa and South Asia, you come to grips with the stark reality of those power imbalances in terms of the communities that we work with. And so acknowledging that research is inherently extractive, right. So we're going in as humanitarian agencies, we're asking people for information, to share information, to share time, to share energy with us - and a lot of the time there's a lack of accountability, there's a lack of reporting back to those same communities, there's a lack of participation in a way that's not one sided, so I think I started to think about a lot of these things in terms of what about appreciating their time? What about other things that they have going on? Who am I in this position who is basically someone who could really affect their lives in really great ways or effect their lives in really terrible ways, because this research is not an exercise in and of itself, it will then determine resource allocation, it determines the type of programs that we will do, where resources will be spent, who will be involved in certain programs. And so I think research is one critical area. Another area is I think definitely in the workplace and seeing the dynamics between different nationalities, people coming from western countries, with western passports, or you know a certain color of their skin and certain other individuals who are coming from for example African passports or South Asian passports - whether they even have documents, so refugees and IDPs and people that we work with an employ - there are stark differences.
Safa: Mmhmm yeah, as you mentioned, this real impact, the result of research processes really determine resource allocation. Could you maybe share with us a bit about the sense of responsibility you feel in terms of really making sure that more ethical approaches are used?
Mahrukh: I've been studying a lot about the ethics of research and how to conduct it and while there are various frameworks and toolkits and approaches, I think one of the more obvious things is what we're taught in school, right. Education in interdisciplinary social science and international affairs, economics, international relations, political science and so a lot of the things that we're taught about research is there's only two kinds of research: there's qualitative and there's quantitative. A lot of it is very binary, a lot of it is very rigid, there are certain methods you can use, you can do one to one interviews, you can do focus groups, you can do surveys, use questionnaires, but it's very limiting in terms of the options and so one of the things that I've come to enjoy and rely more upon and have a strong desire to learn even more are those participatory approaches, where you're treating research participants as participants and not just respondents. So that's one thing in terms of a mindset shift about research that I've thought about. Another is in the past several years I have been more and more drawn to design as a profession and what I mean by design is using design thinking, human centered design, increasing empathy levels, increasing understanding of problems and contexts and using those kinds of principles in my work. And so one of the ways in which I've applied design thinking to research and the various communities and fields out there is the Design Justice Network and the principles that they uphold and I categorize them into three different buckets, and that is exploring the why of the research - why are we doing the research to begin with, right? What is the mission, what are the objectives? Do we even need to do the research? A lot of the time the research that we do is not necessary. It's just gathering more data just for the sake of data. The second question is about the who of the research. So who is doing the research and who are we actually interviewing and involving? This brings up a lot of questions about trust, a lot about ownership and accountability. Are we having people that are representative of the populations that we're trying to survey or interview or learn more about? And then the third is how. So the how of the research. How is the research going to be done? Are we centering voices of those that are the most marginalized? Are we sharing the knowledge and resources as we go along? Is it truly collaborative? So these are the questions and the things that I think about when conducting research.
Safa: And, you know, sometimes there's this disconnect between funders, their approach or their needs and the understandings and the priorities of researchers and then the understanding and needs of the communities? Could you maybe share with us a bit about how it's been like to kind of have these dynamic exchanges between funders, yourself and communities in terms of building a respectful relationship?
Mahrukh: Yeah, absolutely. I think one of the things that comes up with my conversations with leaders, most of all, and project managers, because in the end, that's who we're accountable to, is the systems and structures that have been set up for us - those funding mechanisms and how money is shared and allocated and the deadlines and the timelines and the RFAs, RFQs. It is very much constrained and very rigid. I think a lot of people talk a lot about innovation, and adaptability, and, you know, learning. But when it comes to the way that our project cycles are designed, we have to report based on what we originally thought would be the case or what we originally planned for. So there's a lack of embedded flexibility in these mechanisms. So as an example, perhaps you've decided to do a training program with young women in a refugee camp, about certain livelihoods or income generating activities. And maybe you determine later on, this wasn't the target group or the subject matter of the income generating activities is really traditional and doesn't reflect the reality of changing dynamics, perhaps there's an interest in something else, things that you learn, once you started the project, right. And once you've done the research and learn more about a community and connected with the community, we're stuck within these structures. And sometimes it depends on the relationship, for example, with the the Contracting Officer or the Agreement Officer of those funding mechanisms. But by and large, the system is not set up for that flexibility and adaptation. So I think that's a huge problem, as well as there's a culture of fear. So there's a fear of asking for more, asking Donors to change - to change things up. So there's a fear on the part of both the Project Managers and the, you know, the Country Directors and the Chiefs of Party and the people that interface with the Donors, as well as the Donors themselves. So there's, there's a lot of different dynamics at play. And this is one of the things that I'm actually focused on now, with my new business, the Fearless Project, it's going to be about championing equity in the social impact sector, and specifically in humanitarian assistance. And we're going to be doing a lot of interviews that are ongoing with leaders about what we can do to change this.
Safa: Yeah, wonderful. I really want to get into the work you're doing with the Fearless Project. But before we go there, if you could share a bit about the process or your decision to start Azura Labs in 2017. And what you were hoping that that platform or starting that would allow you to do?
Mahrukh: Yeah, absolutely. So as Founder and Director of Azura Labs, I help international NGOs develop more innovative and equitable teams and programs. So that's my focus, really, and it's really as a researcher and a designer and a strategic adviser. So those are the three things that I focus on: research, design, and strategy. And in terms of the origin story of the Azura Labs, in 2017, I was working for an organization and in a role where I had reached a plateau. And it seemed like there were no opportunities for growth. And I also got tired of that lifestyle of living and working full time in crisis situations, putting out fires, working day to day, crazy hours. So I decided to quit my full time job and try out being a consultant. And I wanted to live and work on my own terms. So in many ways, I'm doing that, I now live in Chiang Mai, Thailand, and I've had a lot of ups and downs in the past three years. Being a consultant is really not for the faint of heart. I think the other consultants out there can agree with that. But I've learned more than I could have possibly imagined and it's been really rewarding and fulfilling in terms of creating space for learning and growth, professional growth. In particular, as an entrepreneur, I have that time and space that I never would have had in a full time situation. So I intentionally budget time and money towards that learning and carving out that space for reflection, and intellectual growth, and relationship building. So these things have been really critical and have translated into more opportunities. And it's been a ripple effect. So, again, my focus has been on research design, and building innovative and equitable teams relating to those.
Safa : Mhmm, beautiful. Yeah, that's wonderful that you able to do that. And I think a lot of people kind of can find themselves, as you say, in that point of a plateau and wanting to start something different, start something for themselves. You are living in Chiang Mai, is there kind of a conscious choice to be living in South Asia?
Mahrukh: So it was a very conscious decision to move to Thailand, in some ways a funny decision, in other ways, a very logical, obvious reason. So one is I wanted to be closer, at least to the region. I wanted more work opportunities in the region of South Asia, Southeast Asia. I think Thailand, it's been a wonderful experience living in this country, really high quality of life. And honestly, as a consultant, low cost of living, it really helped me out in terms of starting out, right. You take a big risk, when you become an independent consultant, you start your own business, and you never know how it's gonna go. But I think culturally, regionally, geographically, it made a lot of sense. I had friends who had lived here before, who currently live here, it made sense to me. I had spent a lot of time previous to that in Sub Saharan Africa. And while I love the region, and I will continue working in that region, I think I wanted to explore a new, a new part of the world, and it's been a great decision, I've been here three years, absolutely love it. But that's not to say that maybe, you know, a few years down the line, I'll move somewhere else. I'm very much a global citizen, very multicultural, and international by nature, that's in my blood, and I'm loving it right now.
Safa: So in terms of thinking about the work that Azura Labs does, you champion this kind of combination of organizational psychology, behavioral science, design thinking, raising awareness of biases. you know, sometimes that can be really heavy work, it can be challenging, there's complexity to it. What has it been like to kind of carve out this approach that's beyond the binary of qualitative or quantitative and kind of really challenge the employers to give a chance to this different approach?
Mahrukh: Yeah, it's been quite a journey. And it's been a challenge. So I think being a consultant is being in a really interesting position, especially as a Senior Consultant, because you have to do a lot of persuasion. And so you're in a position in which you want to garner trust, especially if you're advising leadership, which I am in quite a few cases, or project managers, who then have power to make changes with their teams and how they operate. And set the standard for future teams, and systems potentially. So addressing processes and systems is a big passion of mine, because I feel like that's sustainable And that's long term. So yeah, it's a huge challenge, especially in these complex settings. And it is a very unique space to work in. Because I don't know too many people who work in this space. I take it as a point of responsibility and it has really had me push myself outside of my comfort zone, and broaching really difficult topics. But the way in which I've found that works best is just being myself in terms of being very, very curious and being humble, and at the same time provocative. So I have a colleague or partner who had described my style as being gently provocative, and I fully, fully embrace that. So you know, helping people think about things that they've not done before, that they may have, maybe afraid of doing. Afraid of thinking about things differently. It's just asking a lot of questions, doing a lot of listening about what their fears are, and asking them to maybe try a different approach and integrate things on a daily basis. So people ask me: okay, how do you apply something like equity design? How do you be a designer? How do you work on inclusion? And I don't think it has to be transformative in one day, because it's not going to be. You need to change the day to day work, and it starts with a mindset shift, I would say. So asking yourself a lot of questions about the why, the who, and the how of things I think is a great way to start.
Safa: Sometimes on the podcast we speak about the importance of focusing on the process rather than the final product, you know, challenging this obsession with just outputs all the time.
Mahrukh: Yeah, absolutely. I'm really big on processes and systems. And I think the humanitarian field and the sector and our agencies really do have a fighting fires approach, which can be extremely frustrating because we never get past the day to day. And so when you try to tackle processes and systems, and a culture of an organization and the culture of your teams by just doing things like having a check in on a daily basis, like a daily stand up, which can be 10 minutes, and just checking in with your team members to see how they're doing, or check in on a research project that's ongoing, or checking in on an implementation, or a weekly meeting to check in - just meetings alone. I think sometimes we get really individualized and stuck in weeds. So that's one way to tackle things, asking provocative, gently provocative questions - now that I really liked that phrase, about why are we doing things this way? Can we do things a different way? You know, can we be flexible? Can we be adaptable? Asking communities and asking the people that we are serving more, focusing on co-design, right? So not just deciding what people need or want, but actually asking them. So I think humility is a huge thing. And yeah, the processes are a great way to tackle it. But it's one thing to get a process down on paper, and it's quite another to actually practice it. So I think it requires both the formal and the informal, to ensure that, that they're actually being followed, any changes.
Safa: Yeah, right. Related to that there's sometimes this idea of success can only be measured in a certain way. Or there's kind of connotations around making a mistake or failure. What have been exchanges you've had, perhaps when there was a mistake made or something went wrong, or something didn't work out, and the reaction to that, and how maybe you've been able to process it or learn from it in relationship with your colleagues.
Mahrukh: Yeah, I would say that there's a big fear of failure in our industry. And failure is not seen as a good thing, unfortunately. Because I think life and work is all about trial and error. And that is really the backbone of innovation - is failing frequently, and learning from those mistakes. So it's hard, I think, sometimes in the humanitarian domain, because we think, oh a failure is going to have catastrophic ramifications, because we work with vulnerable populations, marginalized populations. But we can feel in small ways. And if we fail early and fast, it can have less devastating consequences in the end, because if we don't create that space and that room for failure frequently and early on, then there's just more room for catastrophe in the end. So I've seen different leadership styles, some leadership styles in which people like to play the blame game and deflect responsibility. I think the best kinds of leadership styles are the ones that are collaborative, which we work together. And you know, you can reflect on how a certain thing went, but you can just commit to doing something a little bit better or differently in the future, you know. I think one of the scholars that I really enjoy, and that I would recommend other people read up on is Susan David, who talks a lot about emotional agility. And I think this practice of managing emotions and understanding emotions is relevant in every field, in every sector. And that is using three principles. One is showing up with curiosity. The second is showing up with compassion. And the third is showing up with courage. And so if you're able to do all these three things, you're not then accusing each other of things or caught up in rumination or caught up in what went wrong. But you're able to move forward and learn from it. You know, workplaces then just become really joyful and positive. And I think that's something that we all want. And ideally that ripples into the communities that we work with, right. This profession should be about creating joy and creating prosperity in some respect, and so I think that's what we need to focus more on.
Safa: Mhmm, yeah, I think you know, as you say, emotional agility, curiosity, compassion and courage and just being real with one another. On another related point, earlier, you had mentioned this commitment to pass it forward, this commitment to also help and mentor other maybe younger people in the sector are those wanting to enter. And I know you also have this active involvement in terms of the leadership team of the 50 Shades of Aid group on Facebook. Could you share a bit with us about how you got involved in that or what that's been like for you in terms of being part of that community in an active way.
Mahrukh: It's been a whirlwind. And so as you as you know, it's about 25,000 plus individuals, all humanitarian aid workers. And it's described in various ways. But I think it's more a moral support group. A place for humanitarians to come together and vent, share reactions, emotions, feelings, to seek resources, solace in each other when tragedy strikes. It's been this amazing, supportive community that I've been a part of for several years. It was in 2019 which I joined the leadership team. And I think at that point in time, they were looking introspectively - the leadership team and thinking we need more people of color on the team, there's a lot of issues, topics of discussion that are coming up, and we need to look internally, and we need to reflect that diversity that people want and need and deserve. And so I stepped up, it was a volunteer position. And I said, look I'm interested, I feel like 50 Shades of Aid has been this really great resource and community for me, and I'd love to help manage it to some extent, or at least provide my views and advice and contribute to some of the discussions about moving it forward. And so I think right now, it's still, you know, it's still very much a Facebook group. And we've had discussions about whether or not it should live on Facebook indefinitely, or whether it should be on a different platform. There's always trolls that show up from time to time. So that's kind of hard to deal with. And there's a lot of difficult decisions that you need to make as moderators, in order to, one, encourage conversation and make sure that the place is a safe or rather a brave space for discussions to happen, and balance the needs of the group as a whole as well as individuals. So it's been a really challenging, really rewarding experience. And there's a lot of plans for the future. And we'll see where it goes. I think one of the things that I'm most passionate about in terms of that community, is when we translate it to an actual in person community. And so one of the things that I've done and made it a point to do is organize events, whenever I'm traveling, which these days, it's not much. But organizing events to actually bring people together in a in a physical space, which has been really amazing.
Safa: Yeah, and so you mentioned how part of what kind of led you to it is that they had this call out to make it more diverse. Over the years, there have been conversations that, as you said, have been challenging, or have been controversial. From that side of it, have there been times where you've had to, I don't know, make some difficult decisions in terms of what type of dialogue is allowed and things like that.
Mahrukh: Absolutely. So content, moderation is a skill and a field in and of itself. And I am by no means someone who is a qualified content moderator. And so because we're a team of 100% volunteers, all of us with day jobs, all of us juggling different assignments, we have about a a team of about 10 plus admins who step in and out to tackle and handle issues and disputes as they come up, people report various posts, people can become very emotional, some for very good reasons, right. And so those emotions translate into words that maybe should not appear in text in one of those groups. And so we have to make the hard decisions and the hard calls. And probably not all of those calls have been great. But you know, I think we're doing the best that we can. One of the plans for the group is to hire someone, at least a part time content moderator. And so getting that kind of skill set on the team as the community continues to grow, and various ideas of what it can really turn into. I think we're at a point where - we are at an inflection point and so we'll see what comes but it's an exciting time.
Safa: Okay, great. And so, you know, for decades, but specifically over the last year, in the sector, there have been these more mainstream conversations around the need for systems change, the need for different paradigms, what have been your thoughts? Or have you, you know, been involved in these conversations in different ways or in different settings? Or after this heavy year of the pandemic, the different types of violence that different communities have experienced, just where are you at right now in terms of your thoughts and thinking and feelings as well about the sector and the conversations that are happening?
Mahrukh: Yeah, it's been exactly one year I think, since the vast majority of the world went on lockdown, with the COVID-19 pandemic. And so in this past one year, we've had so many things come to light, systemic inequities, in terms of global protests against police brutality and racism. And the COVID-19 pandemic, which has disproportionately impacted marginalized communities, who have experienced higher infection rates, death rates, economic devastation, there's so many things that have come up in the past couple of years. And the Black Lives Matter protest, just a few years before that we had the #MeToo movement that had come up. And so I think in the past year, especially for myself, but I know for a lot of my colleagues in the humanitarian aid sector, there's been a lot of looking inward and looking at our sector, and thinking about what are all the inequities that we're experiencing as well? How does it relate to what's happening on a global scale? How can we do better? How can we bring in this expertise and change our sector also, for the better? I think one of the common sentiments has been in our sector that we do good, therefore we are good. And that is completely wrong, right. And so one of the things that I say a lot is the question about racism, for example, it's not a question of, are we racist? It's how racist are we? So all of us have these biases that we've grown up with, because we live in a society that is inherently biased towards certain people of certain color of skin, of certain gender, of any kind of marginalized or underrepresented populations, we grew up with this bias. And so yeah, I've done a lot of thinking, and it was around this time, last year, so March, right around the beginning of the pandemic, that I had decided to start a business, a social business, that was about championing equity in our sector. So in the social impact sector, and so for the past year, I've kind of been working a bit internally in building up this business and seeking out opportunities to contribute, right now or in the thought leadership space. So contributing to the conversations and discussions around these gender racial biases, biases against people with disabilities, and how that shows up in the humanitarian aid sector.
Safa: This is the Fearless Project, correct?
Mahrukh: Exactly.
Safa: So can you maybe tell us about the vision for it in terms of the years to come? Or why you saw that this was a real need?
Mahrukh: Yeah, so the Fearless Project is really about transforming people, processes, systems. And specifically in the social impact sector, we're really trying to hone in on initially leadership, because studies have shown that leaders of organizations have disproportionate impact on culture and company culture and workplace cultures. And so what I've seen and what so many of my friends and colleagues have seen, and so many people that I've talked to are toxic workplaces within the humanitarian aid sector, and it's just unacceptable. You would think a sector that is dedicated to social and environmental missions would do better, but that proves the point there in, that nobody is immune, right? Of course, we have to question the history and the origins of the sector, right, which are very colonial in nature, which are very hierarchical, top down the funding systems and structures. The focus of the fearless project, initially, at least starting out, will be on leaders, senior managers, senior leaders, doing a lot of advising and coaching for them to, one, I think, have those difficult conversations, build trust, listen to what their challenges are with the barriers they have to enacting change. Also looking at mindsets, looking at transformation on that, giving them the tools and the resources and knowledge that I think a lot of leaders and senior managers feel like they lack. There's quite a lot of paralysis, there's a reluctance to even speak out on certain issues. Or there may be people that are quick to issue a statement, but then not to do the long term work. So a lot of it is kind of short sighted, bandwagoning almost. But there's so much work to be done. And I think the focus will really be on the how, so we know what needs to be done, but now how do we do it? How do we tackle this problem?
Safa: Putting it in action, absolutely. Very important work. And so in relation to that, you know, just thinking about your experiences over the years, have there been times maybe where you questioned like continuing working in the sector or have your motivations changed at all in terms of maybe I don't want to be in the sector anymore?
Mahrukh: That's a great question. It can be really frustrating because I think that the word that comes to mind is hypocritical, right? And it's so frustrating. But it's almost like, you know, I've been in this sector so long, these are the people that I know, these are the networks that I have, where can I make the most influence, right? And because I understand it, because I've worked in it so long, because I do feel at the end of the day, I do believe in the sector, right? I think if I didn't believe in the sector, I wouldn't be in it any longer. But I also believe that this is where I can do the most good. And so there's the one, the answer to your question in terms of leaving the sector, no, no intentions on leaving the sector. But one of the intentions and one of the things that I've already been doing is taking skills, knowledge from other sectors, and bringing it to our sector. So one was design, for example, I think, you know, traditionally I've been a researcher. But in the past several years, I've been studying and I've been trained in design and design thinking and design methods. And that's what I brought over to the sector. A commitment to innovation, a commitment to equity, a commitment to the DEI work. So the diversity, equity inclusion work that really needs to be done and bringing the lessons learned from adjacent sectors, organizational psychology, behavioral science, there's so many things that we can learn from other sectors and other disciplines. And then we can apply within, I think there's a lot to learn. And there's a lot of potential change. I'm optimistic, when we phrase things more optimistically, and about the change that we can accomplish, I think people are just so much more ready to do the work. And so that's one of my commitments. And one of the things that I really take as my responsibility is motivating people, is generating that enthusiasm and that dedication, right, coming back to our social mission, our environmental mission, and providing the tools and the resources as to how we can accomplish it in the best way possible.
Safa: I think that's so important. And in the day to day grind, you know, that can get lost or people lose sight of that so often. So that's so important in terms of bringing them back to that and centering that. And as you mentioned earlier, also this focus on joy and building joy and that being part of the process as well. As you spoke about the importance of learning from other sectors - but in terms of when it comes to people have there been certain colleagues or community members really inspired you or embody the values that you're really committed to, or just kind of stand out in terms of who you've really been touched by?
Mahrukh: There's so many, it's hard to say all of their names. And I couldn't do justice if I would try to list them all out. So I think what I'd rather do is maybe share a few names of people that I really admire that are doing this kind of work in terms of their thought leadership and paving the way, pioneering on the topics of equity and inclusion in the sector. And so Angela Bruce Rayburn, fantastic and loved the podcasts that she did with you. Arbie Baguios of Aid Reimagined. I would say Stephanie Kimou of Pop Works, Degan Ali who's doing a lot of a lot of work in the sector, Hugo Slim who you have also interviewed. Just a few of the names that come to mind in terms of our sector, there's so many outside of our sector also, that I'm constantly learning from and trying to incorporate their knowledge and their practice into my own. And so I'm just so grateful for the people that have come before me, that are doing the work, that are continuing to do the work. And I think the more of us in which we can learn from them and learn from each other and also credit each other, right? Because that's part of pushing the work forward, is making sure that we name and we credit. I'm just so grateful for that.
Safa: Yeah, that's so important in terms of giving credit. And so thank you so much for being so generous with your insights and your understandings. I really appreciate it, not just in speaking with me today, but generally, you're always so generous in terms of the things you share online. And it really resonates with so many people, and so helpful. So thank you so much. And good luck with all the important work you're doing. We really celebrate you and thank you.
Mahrukh: Thank you so much, Safa. It's really kind of you and I would say the same. Likewise, you're doing fantastic work. And I think you're filling a big need for this sector as well and providing a space for people to discuss about these issues. So thank you.
Safa: Thank you. Thank you so much. Thank you also to our listeners for tuning in and supporting the podcast. I invite you to join in on the conversation by going to our website, hitting the send us a voice message button and sharing some of your thoughts with us. Don't forget to subscribe to the podcast on your preferred podcast player, rate and review past episodes and share our conversations with your friends. You can also keep up to date with our latest episodes and offerings by signing up for our newsletter on our website and following us on social media. On our website, you can also find a donation link where you can choose either a one time donation or reoccurring monthly donation option to help us cover our production costs. Thank you again for tuning in. I look forward to continuing this conversation with you all next time. Until then, take care.
