Episode 11: Indigenous Land Defense
Daniel Kobei is the Founder and Executive Director of the Ogiek Peoples’ Development Program, a Kenyan NGO working to secure human and land rights for the Indigenous Ogiek community as well as other Indigenous peoples across Kenya and Africa. Daniel represents Indigenous peoples under the umbrella of the International Indigenous Forum for Biodiversity and the Collaborative Partnership for Wildlife Management, set by the Convention of Biological Diversity. Daniel has been promoting the restoration of the Mau Forest Complex through Ogiek community involvement as a forest dwelling, hunter gathering community. Daniel helped lead the Ogiek to winning an eight year legal battle over land and human rights abuses at the African Court on Human and People's Rights in 2017. But four years later, the Ogiek community are still waiting for the implementation of that legal judgment. He joins us from Nairobi, Kenya.
We speak about:
the violation of the rights of the Ogiek community by the Kenyan state
resisting forced evictions & dispossession of ancestral lands
wining an 8 year long court case at the African Court on Human and People's Rights
the support of regional and international Indigenous rights groups
the undermining of Indigenous conservation knowledge
the impact of climate change in the Mau Forest complex - and much more!
Transcript
lntro: We are not relenting, we are still counting that victory will come. Doesn't matter how long it will take. It will go to history that Ogiek won the case - even if they don't implement it, the whole world knows that the Ogiek won the case. We will continue speaking about it, advocating about it, and telling the government to implement this Ogiek case. This has not killed our spirit.
Safa: Welcome back to the Rethinking Development podcast. My name is Safa, and I'm your host. Thank you for joining me as we speak with and learn from practitioners of all career stages and organizational affiliations around the world. In our conversations, we aim to rethink ethical behavior and best practices through the lived experiences and personal reflections of different guests. Today, I have the pleasure of being joined by Daniel Kobei. Daniel is the Founder and Executive Director of the Ogiek Peoples’ Development Program, which is a Kenyan NGO working to secure human and land rights for the Indigenous Ogiek community as well as other Indigenous peoples across Kenya and Africa. Daniel represents Indigenous peoples under the umbrella of the International Indigenous Forum for Biodiversity and the Collaborative Partnership for Wildlife Management, set by the Convention of Biological Diversity. Daniel has been promoting the restoration of the Mau Forest Complex through Ogiek community involvement as a forest dwelling, hunter gathering community. Daniel helped lead the Ogiek to winning an eight year legal battle over land and human rights abuses at the African Court on Human and People's Rights in 2017. But four years later, the Ogiek community are still waiting for the implementation of that legal judgment. So Daniel, thank you for joining me today. It's an honor to speak with you. And thank you so much, welcome to the podcast.
Daniel: Thank you very much Safa.
Safa: Thank you. Wonderful. I know you grew up in the Mau forest complex, could you tell us a bit about the experiences you had growing up, which led you to, you know, want to and also need to defend the rights of the organic people? How did it all begin?
Daniel: Thank you. It's a long story, Safa. But let me try in a nutshell, to summarize. I was born in early 70s, in Mau forest complex, in a place called Sogoo in Narok County, which is within the Mau forest complex. In fact, Sogoo is a place where the Ogiek community, in a community or a clan called _____. This particular community or clan are the one who are mostly between the forest and the areas where the Maasai people are staying, in parts of of Maasai Mau. So as I was born, I grew up in the forest with hunting and gathering. And as one of the members of the community, Im the sixth born, out of the seven of us in the family, and my late father, who passed on 2003, is the one who introduced us to the strong ethics of hunting, and also introduced us to go to school. I used to go to school, which is around eight kilometers, rather four kilometres to and fro, making eight, and crossing two rivers to go to the school, which was rather fast to go to school -that was in early 1978. And during that time, as a young boy, I grew up knowing that the whole forest belongs to the Ogiek community. But after some time, we realized that it no longer belongs to the Ogiek community, it belongs to other people who are agriculturist. These people when they came, they found that this place is very fertile, and this actually caused a lot of influx of other communities coming to Mau. And as I grew up, there was one thing which made me to feel like: I think we need to be rather released, free, or rather to come out of the poor or lack of recognition by other communities. One, they used to call Ogiek "dorobo". And we hated that name, but the Maasai community called us dorobo, meaning poor people without cattle. The people who depend on dead meat to eat or to do anything. So they looked at us as very uncivilized. Very barbaric in nature. So in that way, it made me to feel like: why are we being called dorobos? Why are these people looking down upon us? And this made me as I grew up, when I went to school, I went to secondary school in Kisii, ___ and I had the chance - the most interesting part is that somebody helped me to go and to go to India to study for four years. And then when I came back, that is when we started a movement. One of the issues in early 90s, we started saying: no, we are not dorobos, we are Ogiek. That is when everybody else started to realize that we are not dorobos, we are Ogiek. And one other thing is that we told the world, we are now dorobos, we are Ogiek, and we have to be given respect. And during that time, parts of Mao, that's in Eastern Mau -Miroshowni, Nessuit, part of Southwest Mau, part of the other areas, were Ogiek are staying - ____, ____, and the rest - the Ogiek were/are being evicted from their land. And that made me to feel like we need Ogiek to be respected. The violations which Ogiek are undergoing is uncalled for. They need respect, they need a home like other Kenyans. And this made us now to start some Ogiek Welfare Association, and then there was another one called Ogiek Welfare Council. And in 1999, I founded Ogiek Peoples’ Development Program. And by 2001, it got registered as a non governmental organization in Kenya. And that is now, we started the movement of struggling and fighting for the rights of Ogiek - basically about recognition and their land rights. So that is when in the early 90s again, some of the Ogiek communities went to court and said: if the land belongs to Ogiek, why other communities are coming, and taking up the land, big chunk of land, while Ogiek is being given a small land, and it is their land - and other communities who are coming are being given big land or big parcel of land, and they seem to be enjoying and having more authority and leadership? Which Ogiek do not have. At that time we do not have even chiefs, I think only in early 1970s and early 80s is when we had _________, he became a chief and then he retired. We never had another Ogiek until another one was was appointed. And then later on, he passed on and still then it took another many years before we had other Ogiek chiefs. But for the political win, the Ogiek have never had a chance, they have only had nominated MCs recently, we had one who became a Senatore, a nominated Senator, but he's being thrown out of the game because of political inclinations.
Safa: Thank you for sharing that trajectory. So in terms of the historical context of as you say, this journey from the 70s 80s 90s, starting the movement, maybe it would be helpful for the listeners just a little bit, could you maybe share also about how the colonial impacts have resonated through the years, in terms of the the evictions that are happening or you know, how Indigenous communities are being treated.
Daniel: I can say the troubles we have now originated from the colonial times, because the Ogiek community were being taken as "it is a small minority Indigenous community". And they felt that these people should not be treated like other communities, but they should be treated like second hand people who should be actually assimilated to the Kalenjin, to the Maasai, or to the Kikuyu community. And actually, in early 1933 and early 40s, they were told they should go to a place called Bomet where they could be assimilated to the Kipsigis community. Some of them in the process were thrown there. But in the process, they came back to Mau, because they died of dysentery, other very terrible diseases in tropical areas because they were a bit dry areas and they were in a colder environment and they wernt to hot environment. And many of them died because of the diseases. And these made many of the Ogiek community to come back to Mau. And they were not given results or areas like the Maasai were given areas in Narok, in Kajaro. The Kikuyus were given in Kiambu and Mũrang'a and other areas. The Luos were given in Niyanza, in Migori, Kisumu and other areas. The Kipsigis were given in Bomet, in Kericho. The Turkanas in Baringo. And all the other communities got a chance of land after the colonial government or the distribution after 1963. They got a chance in their homes, and they were given their lands, but the Ogiek were not given their lands. Instead, they continued being told: you should be part of these other communities. One of the main reasons was that they were in the so called white islands- where we have Egerton University, we have other very important areas in this country. And in the process, the white community said: I think these people are a menace, they should be thrown out, so that they pave way for agricultural work and other issues within Mau - which has resonated again over time, on the same land the Ogiek have been evicted. They've been evicted and being told that: we are doing it for 'conservation purposes'. So it is a repeat in a different dimension, whereby they are being evicted for conservation - during the colonial government it was being evicted to pave way for agriculture, for planting of wheat and other crops. And then during even the early 80s, and 90s, they were also having what we call tea plantation, what they call tea zones, where they wanted - the big men and women in this country, were amassing massive land for planting tea and other crops at the expense of the Ogiek community. So this setup has been a repeat. And this violation has been a repeat. And actually, even before we went to the African Court or African Commission, there had been a mass - we conducted a lot of research, and it became very clear that the Ogiek were massively violated by both the colonial and postcolonial government. And even the current government, sorry to say, because they have delayed - even after us winning winning the court case, they still cannot implement the case for the last four years.
Safa: Yes, yes, very important. And so I would love to speak about that. But before we go there, just to clarify, as you say, this excuse of: Oh, for conservation reasons, it's problematic because the Ogiek community are caretakers of the forests, of the land. So could you speak to us a bit about that frustration in terms of not being able to have access to your traditional lands, which you are caretakers for, for this excuse of: Oh, for conservation reasons, we cannot allow access.
Daniel: It is true - we are conservationists by nature. Forest and Ogiek are one and the same thing. This is where we call it our supermarket. This is where we have everything - we get our medicine, we get our food, we get our shelter, we get everything in the forest. And we protect the same forest - we cannot cut trees, which are meant for doing ceremonies, because they were meant to protect or to be used only for ceremonies. We cannot cut trees which are not dry, we need to wait for them to dry up so that we can cut them for fire or for doing any other thing, any other domestic work. And we have requested the government: give us a chance, we can take care of these forests, we can use the knowledge and the know how which we have in protecting and ensuring that Mau forest complex is protected, not only for the Ogiek community, but for all Kenyans. And even for the whole of Africa. Because the water which has the source in Mau forest, goes up to Lake Victoria ( in Uganda), and then finally to River Nile (in Egypt), which takes care of other countries within Africa, especially on the northern side of Africa. So the kind of work and the strength of us protecting the forests, seems to have been underestimated by the Kenyan government. And we have proved that. And we have even tried using our organization, Ogiek Peoples’ Development Program, in trying even some rehabilitation. And we have done over 200 acres in ___ and some parts of ____ and part of ___ ,where we have already rehabilitation centers for forest - to prove that we plant Indigenous trees, where we can have bees getting pollen for the sake of honey, because there has been a deterioration in honey production for the last over 20 years now, there's been a big decline because people have gone into either spraying or using a lot of drugs, chemicals on the plants, which I'm not a scientist in nature, I think it interferes with the number of bees and dying of bees, and you know what bees can do for generations of humankind. So this setup has been very, very problematic. And it has not given us Ogiek the assurance that we have what we call Indigenous knowledge for conservation, or our traditional knowledge for conservation, which it seems not to be respected. I wish they would respect it, and then the life of our forest will be reclaimed.
Safa: Right. Yes, yes. And so as you mentioned earlier, you establish the Ogiek Peoples’ Development Program. Can you tell us about the journey of starting it and how it has grown over the years in terms of as an organization?
Daniel: Well, it started because there was a need for this organization, because that was the only way we could have a platform to do what we are doing. Even to be able to advocate for the rights of the Ogiek community. So it grew up as a small organization, it has grown now, I have a total of nine staff members. And we have also nine board members. We have, of course, most of them are young people, and from Ogiek community, of course others from other communities. And this has been able to help us to make a lot of networks. We have made networks with many organizations globally, International Land Coalition, Minority Rights Group International, Indigenous Working Group for Indigenous Affairs in Denmark, UGIA - and many, many other organization - Land is Life - and we have organizations all over the world, and even here we are network. Right now, OPDP is hosting what we call "Hunter Gatherers Forum". This is a forum which is hosting more than eight communities. Where we are trying to support their organizations to grow. And we are also helping them to be able to fight for their rights, because they have similar challenges as we do. We have the Yaaku, we have the Sengwer, we have the Ogiek of ____. We have others in the coastal region of Kenya, and all these communities are having challenges because historically, they were hunter gatherers. We are also hosting the Indigenous Territorial Rights for Indigenous People in Africa, in which we are hosting many countries, being hosted by our OPDP, we have Botswana, we have Cameroon, where we have the Khoisan people, the Mbororo people of Cameroon, and the Pygmies of DRC, Congo and Central Africa, the Batwa of Burundi and Batwa of Uganda and Rwanda. All these are organizations where Indigenous peoples are, and my organization, we are working closely with them in doing projects related to learn and policy related in various countries. So we are hosting it with the support of International Land Coalition and other organizations, locally. In fact, currently, we have small support in partnership with Minority Rights Group International and the European Union, which is under what we call SDG 3 and 4, that is education and health. All this has taken time, and building the side networks, has not taken a short time, we have been in it for over 20 years now. Actually, I think this will be our 20th year since we started OPDP. So this is a very strong and now more reliable organization, helping and supporting not only Ogiek community, but other communities in Africa and in Kenya.
Safa: And so as you mentioned, these international partners and colleagues, in terms of the international solidarity you've experienced or just the importance of having these relationships. Could you tell us a bit about your thoughts on the value of these kind of both regional partnerships in terms of the neighboring countries, but also international in terms of these global partners as well?
Daniel: Excellent. Actually, most of them, they have been helping us advocating for the rights of the Ogiek. That the Ogiek should have their right after winning the case. They should be given back their land in Mau, especially those who have been evicted. Not all of them, of course, but those who have been evicted to get back their land, their ancestral land, and also when we have been meeting in the African Commission on Human and People's Rights in the Gambia, Banju, the Gambia, we usually share our thoughts together. We usually make statements, even when we attend the Permanent Forum For Indigenous Peoples in New York, we share our solidarity. Sometime even we sign petitions together. And these have supported our unity as an organization. Of course, others have been supporting us some time with resources from external, and others have been supporting us technically, in supporting - others have given even probono services in supporting the Ogiek legal case over the years. And this kind of network has given us the strength and the support as an organization and as a community, as an Ogiek community.
Safa: Wonderful. So coming now to what we spoke about earlier in terms of the eight year long legal battle that you and your colleagues and your partners faced, in terms of land and human rights abuses at the African Court on Humans Rights and People's Rights. There's a lot to talk about there. Just in your own words, could you maybe tell us about that eight year journey in terms of some of the few frustrations - I'm sure there were many, but at least a few of them, in terms of what you think can be helpful for listeners to understand about that journey and what it took over those eight years.
Daniel: Before I mention the eight years, there were several other years we were in Kenya. Because before you go to the regional court, you should have exhausted domestic remedies. In this case, as Ogiek community, we had from 1997 to 2009 - that's almost 12 years, we were in the Kenyan courts. And in those courts, we could go to court and then we are told that the file is missing, the judge is not present or the magistrate did not appear. And then it is always deferred and deferred and deferred, and also at that time also we had challenges to finance, to support the case. So sometimes even the lawyers do not attend court. And all those frustration made us - until we say now, when it reached 2009, we had already a case in what we call High Court Case of 0- 635 of 97, which was ignored and not respected by the Kenyan government. And in 2009, they gave Ogiek 14 day notice to be affected in their entire Mau complex. This actually arose a lot of interest to some of us personally, I had to take up the issue. And I called one of my great friend, Dr. _____, who was working by then with the Center for Minority Rights Development in Kenya. And he was representing an organization, a community called Endorois, who were also having similar challenges like Ogiek, and they had already gone up to the African Commission on Human and People's Rights. So we requested them now that the Ogiek have the same problem, can the government of Kenya - we have what we call a coalition government by then end of Kibaki and Raila Odinga - that they can also listen to the Ogiek community. Why evict them? How do you evict a people who have their ancestors buried in Mau for years, and decades and centuries, and now you want them to leave in 14 days? It's not possible. So that is when the Commission wrote to the Kenyan government. And without us even knowing the whole thing was stopped, and the eviction was stopped. I requested my community members, the leaders, all the top leaders in the entire Mau - we were 50 of us, I requested them and said: now what do we do? The eviction is there. What do we do about the community? Do we go to the African court? African Commission? Or do we remain in Kenya again and pursue. Some said: no lets remain, others said: no lets go. And then we had to take a vote. Out of 45 of us who are in that meeting there, 38 said lets go to African court. And that is how we moved to the African Commission on Human and People's Rights. And in that process, of course, we had challenges. We didn't have money. We didn't have a lot of these - that is when Minority Rights Group International joined in, with their lawyer Lucy Claridge joining in as the legal person. And we started now to follow up the issues in the Commission. In 2012, the Commission, on their own wish, decided they have realized there's a lot of mass violation of the Ogiek community. They decided let us forward the case to the African Commission, the African Court, which now the case moved from the African Commission to the African Court in Arusha, Tanzania, and then from then, some of us felt: why this has happened? But finally, we realized it was very critical that the case go to the African Court. So we followed up in the middle, of course, there were a lot of threats from outside people, and those who didn't like what we are doing. Some who were finding that the OPDP or the Ogiek were creating problem in going to Court -others were threatening some of us, where on earth do you go, taking the government to court? Daniel, how do you go to court and take the government? So in the process, we had challenges, but thank God, we had very strong women, especially I can say that, who kept saying: please continue fighting on, we are behind you, we pray for you, we'll support you. And by then the youth didn't know what was going on. And some of them even were writing funny things on social media by then. And then later on when I explained, now I have a very big support from the youth, they write very positive stories about what we are doing. And we continued until we went to the hearing in Addis Ababa in 2014. Then in November 27 and 28 we had a hearing going on, and then the Ogiek realized that it was time that we fight for our rights. So the case realized that the Ogiek had something. So they said: can you go for amicable settlement? No, the community said no - amicable settlement is not good for us, that was 2015. And the government started giving very flimsy reasons. And they said: we need all Ogiek to have identity cards, we need all these. Remember, not all Ogiek had even birth certificates, all these they needed. But in the process, we realized: no. Why are we being asked for birth certificates? Nobody in this country has been asked for birth certificate for the sake of his or our own land. This is Ogiek land. And we cannot be asked for birth certificate, we cannot be asked for things which we feel it is our right. So and then they were saying: we don't want OPDP to represent Ogiek, we don't want their lawyers, you don't want this. Then we said: then who are you going to negotiate with? They say: we they want to negotiate with Ogiek Council of Elders, which was not really a well established structure set up in in the Ogiek community, because it was still within the clan set up. So we said: no. Then when the court realized there was no amicable settlement, they said, now let's go for full judgement. And that is when now it took us to May 2017, that is when now the Ogiek case was ruled in the favor of the Ogiek community. And the Kenyan government were asked to proceed on and do the implementation within six months in some parts, and then they would have what we call reparations - that we would have a hearing for reparation, coming June this year (2017). And then we'll be able now to have a proper roadmap on how Ogiek, the Ogiek case, or how the Ogiek case would be implemented in Kenya. So all these challenges, of course, in the process of implementation, the Kenyan government formed what we call a task force to look into the Ogiek case. And this task force was formed in 2017. And then the first one, it ended prematurely in 2018. Another one was formed in 2018, which ended in 2020. And they presented a report which has never been made public to date, despite even taking issues from the Ogiek community, from academia, from civil society. They didn't bring the report, after the Minister for Environment was given the report, he has never made the report into public and we are still waiting. We have requested, we want to know what the government has already integrated, as far as implementation of the Ogiek case is concerned. In the process of this, some of us as human right defenders, people, we have received several threats from land grabbers, from the people who took Ogiek land. Fortunately, the Kenyan government, through the police, were able to rescue us by doing the investigation, especially the threats of them who wanted to get me killed. And they started, they did the investigation, and it subsided. And the reason was, they felt like I had become an impediment into the issue of Mau, and that I'm interfering, as far as they're concerned in the issues of Mau. And not only that, some of the officers I'm working with, their houses were burned down. And then later on, we had also conflict coming in within Mau, the government were trying to evict people, saying that "part of where you are, is a conservation area", that we should wait for the government to implement the Ogiek case. This has created all these. And then, you cannot also miss - there have been also a group, a splinter group within the Ogiek community, unfortunately, who felt that this case is delaying so much. They want a shortcut. And they thought they should work closely with the government to get this implemented. And they are there, and they're become even more or less like betraying the leadership of Ogiek community for their own gains, which is to us, it is normal. But the struggle continues.
Safa: Yes, as you say the struggle continues. And wow, so many barriers and challenges that have come up. So I guess - international frameworks, legal frameworks, regional frameworks, domestic frameworks, there's all these laws and frameworks that can be used to claim rights, to realize rights. And governments, they sign these documents and they pledge that they will enforce it, but then they don't. So in terms of this process of trying to win a case through legal mechanisms, through the legal tools, what have been your thoughts about how these systems are kind of set up for people to claim their rights?
Daniel: The Kenyan government are a signatory to the African Charter. And the African Charter is the one which formed part of the African Court and African Commission. Unfortunately, it is sad that they are unable to respect the same protocols or conventions or charters they are signatory to. And yet, the Kenyan constitution says that: if we are a signatory to any protocol or convention, anywhere, it is going to make it clear that the Kenyan government must respect that particular protocol. So unfortunately, the issue of mainstreaming or rather, the issue of implementing what they claim to be or the signatories we are talking about, is now what is making life very hard. Because they seem not to have a way of ensuring these particular rules are properly implemented. So that kind of feedback mechanism, which, of course, what made of Ogiek stronger was when we used to have feedback mechanism, to ensure we report back whatever we are being told, either by the court or by our lawyers.
Safa: Yes. And so you spoke about at the end, how the task force was established, but they didn't reveal the findings of their report. Could you also speak about like, who is on this task force? And does that include representation from the Ogiek people?
Daniel: Interesting. That's a nice one. These task forces which have been formed - not once, the issue of Ogiek has not had one task force. Even before we won the case, there had been task forces, which had been formed. One was called Mau Taskforce, which had an issue of implementing the Ogiek issue. Unfortunately, that one also was never implemented. But the report was made public. The one for Mao task force, which had Ogiek representation by then, never made any impact, because there was no proper implementation. The formed an implementation team called ICS - Interim Coordinating Secretariat, which, again, informed what we call Council of Elders to try and implement or rather settle the Ogiek issue once and for all. By then we had gone to Court. I remember, since I was in that Committee, I was told in 2009, 2010 - Daniel, why do you still want to be in this and yet, you have taken the government court? I said, if you don't need me here, I'm just ready to to return, or to go back or resign from this position. But the community saying: no, we cannot, without Daniel being here, we cannot have this representation of the community or the Council of Elders. But now the second one, after the winning of the case, the task force which was formed after 2017 - those are the one which I want to underline - is that there was never a representation of the Ogiek community. The people who are in the task force, the people who are specially having a direct link with the government, or rather they have people within the government who are able to appoint them - any appointments, sorry to say, mostly, in my country, most of them are people either they are in good books with the government or they're in good books with some specific big person within the government. Those are the people would get chances to be appointed to such task forces, because it is being remunerated well, and they are being taken care of well. So there is no way they could have an Ogiek or an Indigenous person being in those task forces. The last one had members who are either aligned to this CSO, or Cabinet Secretary, or to the President or Deputy President, or the people who are very important in this country. But we never had - we requested and said: could we have an Ogiek also being there. But nobody was able to hear us. But instead, we said: we will not relent, will continue and even make our presentation to the task force. And actually on the sixth of February 2019, we made a very strong delegation, making a presentation to the task force, which was headed by Dr. Robert Kibugi, in which we said: these are the demands of the Ogiek community. And we listed 15 points. We told them, we need - the Ogiek, we need our ancestral land, we need our communal land, we don't need this sub divided. But we needed our communal land. We needed also to be given a chance to make decisions for our forest. We also needed access and benefit sharing mechanisms, properly stated, in areas where the government feel they should have, instead of having Ogiek. And we also understood and said: the full implementation of the case, and even compensation for the years we have suffered and were violated. And even we should have a monument to to really show that the government have to give Ogiek an apology for the many years they have suffered, being evicted, being thrown out, some of them missing schools because the schools were closed down. But in this way, we actually felt that the task forces cannot make any sense if they don't include the Ogiek community, or they don't include Indigenous communities, or persons or people who have interest in respect, in respecting human rights.
Safa: Right. So in terms of, as you mentioned, what reparations would look like for you - very important to share that, but also this point that this was the first Indigenous peoples rights issue to be handled by the African Court. So it sets a precedence. Right?
Daniel: Exactly.
Safa: Yes. It's also very important in that way. And so, as we have been talking about to date, it hasn't been implemented. So what are your feelings at this stage of the process? How are you feeling? You know, as you mentioned, it's been 20 years since you established the Ogiek Peoples’ Development Program, and 4 years since the ruling, like what are the things you are concerned with right now? And what are your hopes for the next steps?
Daniel: Well, one thing is that we are not relenting. We are still counting that victory will come. Doesn't matter how long it will take. We also feel you can never shelf the rights of individuals, whose rights are being violated. And yet it has been declared that the Ogiek are the Indigenous peoples of Kenya. This Ogiek case of 006-12 of the African Commission on Human and People Rights in the African Court is won - and being the first ever case to be heard by the African Court, which talks about communities. So one is that it will go to history, that Ogiek won the case, even if they don't implement, the whole one knows that the Ogiek won then case, even if they don't implement. We will continue speaking about it, advocating about it, and telling the government to implement this Ogiek case. And these delays have been coming - and we feel sometimes very frustrated. I know, some all Elders who have died waiting for this. We have buried many, most recently, even amid this COVID, and buried people who would have wished to see success and victory and a major celebration for the Ogiek community over the case. But as we are talking, nothing's happening. This has not killed our spirit. I remember when we would meet and we would make a celebration, on 26th of May of every year, we commemorate the win of this case, by telling the Kenyan government and the world: please let Ogiek have their rights. And let them enjoy what is theirs. And I expect that to be done. And we continue advocating by making factsheets - we are making videos, trying to tell the world. We make settlements everywhere, telling the world that Ogiek need their rights. We have been ensuring that we fully involve everyone within the community. And even among the Indigenous peoples. We send signals to tell them we won the case, yes - our case has not been implemented. We need it implemented. So advocacy is still on. We are unrelenting - we want to ensure it happens.
Safa: Wonderful. Yes. You know, earlier you mentioned being in New York at the UN Tribunal or the UN meetings - in thinking about the role of the UN in terms of kind of being a place that demands accountability or sets standards and principles. What have been your thoughts about the role that these kind of international organizations can play or have played? Have you ever been disappointed by maybe the limits to their power and influence - or their role in the situation, in terms of the international aspect of this?
Daniel: Yes. I've been many times disappointed. But in other times, I'm also happy that I'm able to make a statement. But to me, some of these negotiated agreements, which have no penalties or rather, there's nothing they can do to a country like Kenya, who unfortunately are not even signatory to the UNDRIP. But still, they send a member of the government to be a member of the Permanent Forum. A Forum they don't believe in. And yet they have a representation. And one only success, which, of course, I cannot say 100%, that these are only places you make your statements, sometimes they make it known on media, public media. But they never change or rather influence Kenya in any way, to do what Kenya doesn't want to do. The only issue which we are fortunate about is there was a visit by a Special Rapporteur some years back, called Rodolfo Stavenhagen, who came to Kenya. And he took the situation - he visited even our office- it was still new then, and even went to the community and he saw for himself. So as the Special Rapporteur, he was able to take back the information, back to the UN. But I don't know what happened after that, whether the government had been told to do it. But the impact is very minimal. It is only that they are avenues to advocate for the issues facing the community. For instance, we also have - whenever there are threats, we get a chance to write our issues to the Indigenous organizations or Indigenous mechanisms, and especially Special Rapporteur in charge of Defenders, those who are struggling, and those Special Rapporteur in charge of Indigenous Peoples, all these things are there. But I said, just like the African Court or African Commission, it still seems they don't have a very powerful mechanism or way to push the Kenyan government - apart from writing letters, telling the Kenyan government, please do this. But sometime if they don't comply, we don't know what next?
Safa: Yes, yes, it's very frustrating and challenging. Earlier, we spoke a little bit about climate change and conservation, is that a big worry for you in terms of the crisis of climate change and the impact that it's having on the Mau forest, but also just generally in the world, in Kenya, and what have been kind of your thoughts around the effects this will have on your homeland, on your community?
Daniel: Yes, climate change is a global issue, and it is affecting all of us in different ways. For us, if the destruction which is going on in Mau forest complex is not curtailed, or curbed, there will still be a challenge, and it will affect people downstream, including the lakes around, which are fed by water from Mau, which right now, the lakes have become flooded, there are a lot of issues happening. So in the process it is impacting a lot of people and even the communities, because the change of rain patterns, the change of everything else is affecting us, and those who are also being supported by the waters, or by the big, the big water tower of Mau forest complex. So it's something which is affecting us. And it's really a challenge.
Safa: Mhhmm. Just as a clarification, I think maybe for the listeners so, in this time - in these past four years, where you still haven't seen the implementation of the ruling - is it that evictions are ongoing and that the threats are ongoing. What is the status of living in this in between stage of the lack of implementation?
Daniel: Of course, it is all frustration. One it is affecting the community, because most recently in 2020, the government, even amid these COVID-19 issues, they started saying they want to start demarcating part of Eastern Mau, and they want to come up with communal land, and even without due regard to the African Court and even due regard to the reparations which we are still waiting for. But instead they wanted to do their own way and report back to the African Court that we have actually settled Ogiek issues. And when this thing was going on in July, part of June, July, there were evictions going on in eastern Mau. And we had almost over 1,000 Ogiek community affected by the eviction. And we have to go to the Court here in Kenya and say, why are we being evicted, and we are waiting for implementation of the African Court? Because we couldn't go back - but because it was being done by the administration here in Kenya, and especially here in Nakuru. And it was sad that they didn't want even to hear what he wanted to tell them. I remember taking the community to see the Regional Commissioner, to tell him: please, can you hear us? Can you wait for the case to be fully implemented? And also, can we wait for the report of the task force? Because the task force should have given us a roadmap of what to do. But nothing was happening. So the community now, even they were being told not to do any kind of farming, or anything, because you know, people have left from hunting and gathering to subsistence farming. But they were being told: no, stop planting maize - because there were conflicts going on. And these conflicts were caused by issues and frustration, which were being done by the government themselves, by splitting and say: we want everybody to be settled, the Ogiek - and the young people felt like we won the case. Why are we being settled by everybody else? All these where interfering and making the government, the community feel that their rights are still being violated - even after winning the case! What kept the Ogiek community over the years to be together is that there have been unity, because we have always created what we call a feedback mechanism, where we have to tell the community what is going on every time. Secondly, the use and the involvement of women in the struggle made this struggle to become a success. Because it was not done only by men. Women also came in, also young people started coming in at a later stage. Not all Ogiek were supporting the struggle, especially those who might have been compromised. But we are always saying we are grateful to the Ogiek women, and the youth, for the support. And of course all elders, and those who have passed on - when they were struggling for the rights of the Ogiek community.
Safa: When you speak about the role of women, could you maybe say a bit more in terms of their power and their encouragement to continue this fight and not stop until your rights are realized?
Daniel: The women kept on, through the folk songs, through the way they present the issues, they are never compromised. I remember I went last year, when the Ogiek youth were being beaten by police, or rather being arrested because of struggles and evictions going on, the women themselves had to demonstrate, the courage they had, not any person could do that at the time, because the government machinery was so strong, you could easily be arrested. But they kept moving. And then again, they keep speaking. And one thing you should know is that women are not easily compromised, like men are, especially in countries where corruption is reigning. So this has really made it very, very strong, because, one, they feel for their children, they feel for the future of their children. So that's what kept us moving. And they kept telling us, please don't relent, we are behind you , we will always support you.
Safa: Very inspiring. Maybe just as a more personal note, you've been a leader in this, you've been through so much. You're also the Executive Director of the Ogiek Peoples’ Development Program. You know, being in that position of leadership, what have been your feelings of maybe responsibility in terms of being a leader in this struggle and continue the work and having the sustained energy?
Daniel: One thing I can say is that one of the greatest feeling which has been in my heart, is that the Ogiek community seems to have been for some time having a vacuum of leadership. And when we started and they started recognizing my leadership, another issue came in, they also focus and think I can solve all their problems. Which is very difficult. People when they have any kind of challenge, issues of paying fees for their children, issues of health issues, people in hospital, maternity and all that. They come back to me as a leader, and say, hey can you support us. They see me as solving all their problems, which is not possible. And sometimes again, you'll find that the political class do not like me, because they look at me sometime to be anti government, which is not the case. I even met several government officers and I told them, I am not fighting anybody, I'm just asking to be given my rights. I have not gone and picked any gun or anything. I've only been asking: can we have Ogiek to get their rights? And in this case, you are bogged down with issues. And also you find that you have a challenge with the family, because you spend a lot of time doing a lot of things for the community, sometime minimal time with your family members. And this also is a challenge. But you always try, especially, when you have a supportive family members who know why you're doing what you're doing. Because it's more or less of a calling. It is not really in terms of a job. But it's more of a calling, and an interest and passion to see people set free from these kinds of uncalled for violations. We have the rights of land in Mau, it has is been challenged by others, not forgetting who are the owners of Mau. The pure ownership is for the Ogiek community. Because they are the owners of Mau.
Safa: Yes, and so, thank you so much for speaking with me, I feel very grateful for your time and for sharing your story and your reflections with us. Thank you so much.
Daniel: Thank you so much, Safa. Thanks for taking the time to listen to this frustrating story at times. I just call upon the international community to speak to the Kenyan government, and tell them to respect the rights of Ogiek community and allow them their rights to Mau as their home, and that they should not always talk of conservation, they should talk of the owners of the forest they are talking about. Because we are not only talking about conservation, we should also say: who were there before and who have been there, taking care of this Mau. In fact, they should also take into consideration the Indigenous knowledge we have for conservation, so that the future of Mau forest complex is assured. Thank you very much. Thank you.
Safa: And again, a big thank you to you, Daniel, for spending your hour with us and speaking with us. I really appreciate it.
Daniel: Thank you very much.
Safa: Thank you. Thank you so much. Thank you also to our listeners for tuning in and supporting the podcast. I invite you to join in on the conversation by going to our website, hitting the send us a voice message button and sharing some of your thoughts with us. Don't forget to subscribe to the podcast on your preferred podcast player, rate and review past episodes and share our conversations with your friends. You can also keep up to date with our latest episodes and offerings by signing up for our newsletter on our website and following us on social media. On our website, you can also find a donation link where you can choose either a one time donation or reoccurring monthly donation option to help us cover our production costs. Thank you again for tuning in. I look forward to continuing this conversation with you all next time. Until then, take care.
