Episode 2: Lessons from Indonesia
Gracia Hadiwijaja is a research consultant and has over 10 years of experience in the development sector in Indonesia. She has worked for the SMERU Research Institute, the World Bank, the ERIA Research Institute, the IFP Research Institute, TNP2K, and she is currently the Chief Operating Officer of a research program in Kalimantan funded by the Center on Food Security and the Environment at Stanford University. She joins us from Jakarta, Indonesia.
Gracia speaks to us about:
rethinking both impact and failure
the limitations of statistics
loving her work
finding a government ally - and much more.
Transcript
Intro: It’s development 101. If you want to make your program happen, you have to find a champion within the government - at least that’s the rule of thumb in Indonesia. Because again, I mean, I have worked for the government and worked for non government organizations before and I realized that without the support of the government, you definitely cannot do anything. You can have all the money in the world, but if the government is against you, you will not be able to do anything. And then I’ve seen in several cases, when one person within the government can make all the difference.
Safa: Welcome to the Rethinking Development Podcast. My name is Safa and I will be your host as we speak with and learn from development practitioners of all ages and affiliations around the world. We’re interested in having conversations about how to rethink ethical issues related to designing and implementing development programs. Our guest today is Gracia Hadiwijaja. Gracia has over 10 years of development experience in Indonesia, working with social justice think tanks, the World Bank, with government, with academia on a range of social issues such as poverty reduction, environmental degradation, trade policy and more. She’s also one of my former colleagues at the SMERU Research Institute. Garcia, thank you so much for joining us today.
Gracia: Sure. You’re welcome Safa.
Safa: I especially appreciate you joining us from your time zone in Jakarta. I know that is an early morning there, so thank you.
Gracia: Sure.
Safa: So maybe to begin with, could you tell us a bit about what you are currently working on and your current role?
Gracia: So at the moment I’m actually a researcher at Food Security and the Environment Centre at Stanford University. So it’s, it’s a long story by itself how I get this position. But what we currently do is we have a research on forest fire prevention in Kalimantan in Indonesia. And we are trying to give incentives for villages. So they are willing to prevent fire for the dry season in 2018. And the idea is we want to emulate the practice in Brazil and in India where giving financial incentive actually worked for, for forest prevention.
Safa: And how, and how many years is this research project designed for?
Gracia: So there are two parts of the project, so the intervention and probably the post intervention which is the writing, the analysis. So the intervention itself for now is for a year and we’ve actually finished the, the writing part. So we’re, we’re entering the analysis and the writing part at the moment. So we are in the second year of our project.
Safa: Excellent. And would you say that this role is similar or different than what you have worked on before or in the past?
Gracia: I think it’s a little bit different. So I am a researcher and not so much a field person. Usually you have the analysis part of the development (project) and the implementation of the development (project). So I usually stay in the former, so I do research, I do analysis. But for the roll that I have now, I have to do a lot of fieldwork. I have to manage a lot of local staff, making sure they take data and making sure that they do the facilitation on the field right. So it involves more management role and more field work for me in comparison to the do the job that I had before.
Safa: I see. So you mentioned that a big part of your research involves field visits and collecting quantitative and qualitative data and doing interviews. Can you perhaps speak to us about the ability to listen and learning, the skill of listening and how you have been able to develop that throughout your career up to now?
Gracia: So I guess there are several things that I learned in terms of listening. So in, at the beginning of my career, I tend to listen to everything. So I, I listen and I just, everything that someone, someone told me. So for example, I remember my first job as a researcher, I had to interview a staff at the Ministry of Health. So we were, I think we were at that time we were dealing with the monitoring and evaluation system within the ministry. So I asked the staff a bunch of questions and he, he gave me a very, very long answers and it confuses me because some might relate to my question, but most of his answer are not related at all. So I was, I remember I was making this strange face, like I was just, you know, like really focusing and my, my senior colleague was laughing at me and she told me that, you know, when you’re in interview you just have to filter what you receive. Because within that answer, you have to find the actual answer — within that answer. So, so you have to listen, but you have to filter the answers yourself. So you have to know which one relate to your question and which one is not. And then the second one is you have to differentiate between answers and expectations. So I feel like when you go to the field and you ask a questions about like how is this government program going for you? And then a farmer or maybe a poor household, they will give you an answer that actually are their expectations. So they will say, oh yeah, it’s going well, but we wish to have more. We want, we hope that the amount of money that we receive is larger. So I think it, it’s an art and it takes practice to know, to filter out what you want to keep and what is actually valuable for your research and what is what is actually not
Safa: Interesting. And in those occasions where you receive an answer that maybe it’s the person’s expectation or perhaps they are telling you what they think you want to hear in those situations, how do you react?
Gracia: I just try to be as polite as possible. So you cannot give them false hope, but you, you also cannot give them zero hope. So you say, Oh yeah, I know that something a relate to what I’m doing right now. So we will see how we can improve, improve that for you. But again, like I said, you cannot just say no, oh no, no, no, that’s not what I’m doing. I have nothing to do with that. So it’s, it’s, I would not consider that as polite. So you have to be polite, so you have to let them know that you’re listening. But at the same time, of course, you cannot give them false hope. The second part is harder. The one where, where they give you the answer that you want to hear. I think in a lot of situations you get the same answer for, for everyone, from everyone. And that’s when usually you know that it’s, they’re giving you answers that they think you want to hear. So in that situation, you just probe. So you just ask more questions. You, you triangulate and you ask the same question with a different, in a different way. So it’s just, it’s just a matter of patience and asking them, the question over and over again.
Safa: As you say, it’s an art and it requires practice, but in that practice or in that, in developing that skill, have you ever, thought about what are the ethics involved in terms of, the information you collect and how then you filter it and then present within reports? Or have you had any occasions where you’ve had like group discussions or team meetings or if you have a specific policy around how to ensure that the information that you collect is accurately presented in the reports and the documentation that come out of it at the end?
Gracia: An example of this as, if you, in my case for example, so I’m dealing with forest fire prevention efforts. So if I ask them like, how often do you, you do fire patrol? And they say, Oh yeah, every day. But you don’t see any, motorcycles allocated to do it. You don’t see any, any fire task force in the, in the village, you can pretty much tell then that that’s probably not the truth. So you have to observe yourself, you have to observe, and then you have to ask additional questions. And if, if they are just really, really, really, really good and then it turns out it’s still covering up the whole truth, then I don’t, there’s not much we can do, but, but what you do as a researcher, you do your best to find the truth. So you ask multiple questions, you observe. So that’s how you make sure that your information is accurate.
Safa: And not just in terms of collecting and presenting information, but in general, have you had any experiences at work, whether it’s your current position or in the past where you had a moment where you disagreed with how things were happening or you thought that it was incorrect or unethical — can you give us any examples of times where you’ve had to navigate these kind of difficult situations?
Gracia: Oh yeah, I can, I can actually give you an example. So, not in my current job, but in my previous one. So I was dealing with a database for the poor. So at that time I was working for the vice president’s office and they were building a huge database that holds the name and addresses of the, of the bottom 40% population in Indonesia. So I don’t think it’s, it’s a luxury that a lot of country a lot of country have. So, but Indonesia at that time just happened to start their social protection program and then they want to make sure that they can target the right people and the right households. So they decided that they want to build this database. So we were working on that. And so there are weaknesses in income data in Indonesia. So you can gather the information about household characteristic but it is very difficult to know how much a household earn, for example. So the way we predict a certain household welfare is we do statistical modeling. So based on household characteristics we can tell approximately how much a household earns or a person earns. And then based on that number we can determine whether this household is eligible for a certain social protection program or not. But the ethical issue comes in when, as a statistician, you know that there must be an error in statistic modeling. So statistic is just a predictive tool. It can, it cannot be accurate 100% so if you, if you just look at a standard statistic formula you know that the error is there. So this is when the ethical issue comes in. So what do you do with the error? So a rich household will look as if it’s poor and a poor household will look as if it’s rich. And the consequence is if you are poor, you will, you will, you will not get the, the program that you are actually eligible to. And if you are in one of the error, the rich error household, you will get the program. Although you are not eligible to get the program. But so — I myself have had this internal struggle, so I mean, I know this is not going to be perfect. And then we all know that some households that are within that error are not going to be happy, especially the poor one. But at the end of the day, that’s, that’s the best thing you can do at that time. So, so we just have to do it. And then we, we follow up. We do, we do another activity that can hopefully cope with that error. So what we did at that time is we created a grievance mechanism at the local level. So if a village head for example, see that this, that this an error they can report back to us and then we hopefully can, can, can fix the error and change the names of the program recipients. Maybe not all village heads are willing to do that. So actually, I have to be honest, I’m sure some of the programs, given to those that don’t deserve them and then there are still some poor households that may not get the program that they’re eligible for. But, but that’s, that’s, that’s the hard truth that you have to face within the development research that there’s, there’s no perfect solution to your problem.
Safa: Right. As you say, there’s no hundred percent proof method or statistic that can be used to ensure that everyone who should qualify for a social protection program has access to it. But the grievance mechanism idea that you suggested, that’s very interesting. Even though you say that perhaps not all local level stakeholders implemented it, do you think that some did take advantage of it?
Gracia: Some did take advantage of that. But even in the, for us at the central level, it’s just a lot of challenges to be able to do this because this is one village, but to accommodate this one village, you have to basically mess with the whole national database. So it’s, it’s a lot of work. So we can, I mean, we can accommodate some of the divisions, but it’s just — it sounds simple, but when you have to do it, it’s just really complicated. So, so I know some village heads did get their problems resolved, but I have to be honest, like some don’t do it because they don’t see- some of the fault is in our hands. So I think it take us too long — for them to respond. So they just, so they actually created their own problem solving mechanism. So what they did is they received the, the program at that time, it was about rice. So we were delivering rice for the poor and then, according to the village heads, some of the data are not accurate. So they were, they were submitting their requests for refreshing of the recipient list. But then because we were not able to respond very well to this, what they decided is they receive all the rice and they just divided equally among, among their community. So that’s, they actually came up with their own solution. Of course it is not ideal. I mean the poor will definitely receive less than they should and in the rich definitely receive what they, shouldn’t receive. So, but, but village are, are they, are, they know what, what to do within the community to make sure things still at peace.
Safa: Right. As you say in the Indonesia context, the government is decentralized, it’s a very big population. Can you speak to the challenges of working in development in Indonesia specifically in terms of the population and the way that the government agencies are set up?
Gracia: I guess the first thing that I should clarify, that you shouldn’t, you shouldn’t be tricked by the term decentralization. I mean decentralization of course means that the governance go to the lower level. But that doesn’t mean that the village, for example, rules everything. It, the most direct consequence is on the budget. So what happened was that, so before the centralization, all the budget are in the central level, but now they are spread out across, across villages. So it gives definitely,, at least financial power for the village now. So they, they, they manage their own money, but the central government, they don’t let the village, so they don’t just leave the village to govern themselves. And what I mean by that, there are still guidelines from the central governments. So the Ministry of Finance, the Ministry of Village, the Ministry of Home Affairs, they create these guidelines on how villages can spend their money. And I think the biggest challenge at least so far that I’ve observed, that villages are afraid to do outside that, that guidelines. So some villages, I mean you have to understand that the capacity, the human capacity, the human resource capacity in Indonesia might not be optimal as well. So it really depends on how, how smart, how proactive the village head are. So some that are proactive they are willing to find a way to accommodate the real need of the village. But the other village head, they just strictly follow the guidelines regardless of whether or not it’s the, it’s the thing that the village actually need. So it’s, it’s definitely a complicated process. Especially because decentralization in Indonesia goes all the way through the village level. I know for example if they decentralization is only at the province level, you have like a federal system like in the US, so, but Indonesia just go all the way to the village level. So, and the challenge for that is definitely human resources, but, and because you, you have a lot of village head that are not very educated so they’re they’re afraid to ask. So I’m not saying that they don’t know how to act, but I guess not having enough level of education just affects their level of confidence instead of their level of capacity. At least thats what I observed.
Safa: Many people advocate for more localization, more grassroots support, more bottom up approaches when it comes to development program planning. How have your experiences been in regards to how, how much local ownership and local involvement there is with some of the projects and programs you’ve been involved with personally in Indonesia?
Gracia: Okay. The short answer to this is it works in small cases, but not always. That doesn’t always work. And that, that, that definitely does not always happen on the ground. So there’s this oil palm village in Pekanbaru for example. So they think that the best thing to do for them is to create this integrative agriculture system. So to basically move away from the oil palm practice. So they are, they are trying to gather money to, to make this happen. But the problem is it might not be the priority of the district government and it might not be the priority of the central government. So there’s a mishmash of, of priorities within the different levels. So it’s, so it’s, it’s very unlikely that the this village will, will get what they want. But because essentially the money will come from the central government. It’s allocated to the village level. But the source, again comes from the central government and sometimes if you want to do a big, a huge program, the money that the village itself is not going to be enough. So you have to ask for some assistance from the central government. But then it might be the case that central government is not prioritizing on the same thing with the village level. So they might want to build a road instead of building a specific agricultural system. So I’ve seen a lot of things, a lot of occasions where the priorities within the levels of government are not, they just have different priorities within different level of government. So the village doesn’t get what they want. So it’s not like they’re not being listened, it’s just the financial priorities at the time were different. So they, they, they don’t get, they’re not able to get what they want. But there, there are definitely occasions when you know, when, what the village want, if it’s in line with the district priorities and the central government priorities and if that happens, then definitely the program will happen.
Safa: Right. We had been talking before and you had mentioned the importance of finding a champion in the government in order to support the program or the development project that you want to implement or begin. So can you speak to that concept a bit in terms of finding a champion and the importance of that in, in order to really make an impact?
Gracia: Oh yeah, definitely. Finding a champion. So it is Development 101. So if you want to make your program happen, you have to find a champion within the government. At least that’s the rule of thumb in Indonesia because again, I mean I worked for the government and worked for a non government organization before and then, I realized that without the support of the government, you, you definitely cannot do anything. You can have all the money in the world, but if the government is against you, you will not, you will not be able to do anything because the government basically runs the country. And then I’ve seen, in several cases when one person within the government can make all the difference. So having a nice, beautiful, smart program is important, but at the same time it’s, it’s very important that you find someone that will support your idea with them in government so you can implement your idea. So I guess it’s just a simple, a simple rule that you know, you have, you have to combine ideas with, with personal connections. And I think it applies not only in government, I think it applies in everywhere and in, in, in all aspects in our, in our lives. So you have to find support. That’s basically it.
Safa: As you say, combining ideas with personal connections. So the idea of fostering productive work relationships in order to achieve impact is very important in the work that you do. Can you speak to us about some of the most inspiring or impactful managers that you’ve had in the, in the past 10, 12 years of your career?
Gracia: So in Indonesia, there’s this unconditional cash transfer program. And what it means is that poor households receive money in exchange of the mother submitting to several health and education requirements for their children. And then this is being governed by the Ministry of Social Affairs in Indonesia. So I was working with the World Bank at that time and then we wanted to increase the amount of the money received by the household because based on our, our analysis and our research at that time, the amount of money that they received at that moment is not enough at all. So you, no matter how hard you are trying to do an impact evaluation, basically you will not find any result because the amount of money is too small. So yes, we work together with Ministry of Social Affairs, but at that time they are not willing to listen as much as we want them to be. So we found another way. So we went to the Ministry of Planning here in Indonesia. And so there’s this one lady who’s in charge with social protection budgeting. So she’s not responsible for designing the program, but she was responsible on how much money can be allocated from the state budget to this program. So we thought, okay, we just talk to her, we will try to lobby. So that the program can, can receive more money without having, um, a certainty that the Ministry of Social Affairs will agree to increase the money anyway. But, but the logic is of course, if they have more money, hopefully they will use it. I mean there are several, several, several possibilities. They can increase the amount of money that the house has received, but they can also decide to stay with the current amount and just expand the money and give to more, more households the program. But we thought, okay, this is just, we will try this method. So we went to the Ministry of Planning and talked to her and then — she’s just, she’s, she’s actually very much interested and she believed in our, in our, in our explanation. So she, so she asked a very simple request, can you give me a powerpoint? Like, you know, several, several, several pages of powerpoint explaining why we have to increase the money. So I actually worked on that myself. So you made the powerpoint with all the analysis. We do like a, like a comparison. So if you received this much money what will be the impact and if you received that much money, how much will household feel their impact? And she, she actually brought that powerpoint presentation to the Congress and I think the next year the budget for that program actually increased. And and just miraculously — I don’t know, I wasn’t, so I wasn’t involve in this until, until the end, but miraculously the next year household actually received more money for that program. So I think it’s just an example — because there’s no, at least for the big programs, so it’s, it’s going to be more than one ministries and it’s going to be more than one government official that are involved in the, in the making of a program. So if, if one doesn’t agree with you, I, I strongly agree — that I strongly suggest that you find the other counter part that they can hopefully give you an open door and then receive your ideas.
Safa: When you think of the work you’re doing, of the mission of your organization, of the development industry in general, what personally, what are you trying to achieve, within that work? Do you have a personal motivation or how do you think of the purpose of the work that you do on a daily basis?
Gracia: As I said, I’m more on the research aspect of development, instead of the field implementations. But I think my, my idea, also also my motivation also maybe shift a little bit. So I remember when I first started working in development, I was, I was telling my boss that, you know, I was not satisfied basically what the, with the project that I was doing. And I told him that, you know, I want to do something more tangible. I mean, I don’t see the point of, you know, writing a paper and then I’m doing analysis when nothing happened on the field. But, um, I guess as time goes by, it’s not that I’m losing my, my idealism, it’s just, it’s just impact at the end of the day is something that you cannot control. So what, what keeps me going personally is just my love of research. So I just love doing research and I think it’s, it’s, it motivates me much more than anything else — that I love doing what I do. I love seeing numbers and I love seeing how these numbers can actually tell a lot of stories about what is actually going on in the field and, and for the impact itself. I mean, it’s, and this is just my personal belief, I think there’s always an impact. Even if someone in a government pretend that, that they don’t listen to you. I’m sure they, they received the information that we, that we give them and I’m sure it actually makes him or her think more about what he’s doing. So I guess when, when people talk about impact, they usually always refer to the big impacts. So if you want to do poverty reduction, like you know, how, how much poverty have you, have you reduced in this past year. And I don’t think that’s, that’s not, that’s I think that is just too judgmental if you work in development. So it might be the case that the poverty doesn’t reduce, but because of your research they changed the way they design their programs. So if the poverty doesn’t reduce this year, it might be reduced next year. So you just have to be careful without, I mean, about setting your expectation. You just have to be very careful about, I’m thinking about impacts and I think what you can control is your personal interest in the topic in the, in the activities that you do everyday.
Safa: And what keeps you motivated? What gives you the energy to keep doing what you do? Is it just the passion that you have for the, for the work?
Gracia: Two things. One, like I said, it’s definitely my love of research. So I like playing with numbers and I just find it fascinating that numbers can tell so much. So when the stories about people on the ground, it’s just, it seems like they are not related, but it’s just amazing when you can find answers to, the problem in the field by just looking at the numbers. And then second, I guess it’s, is that my, my days are unpredictable. I think it’s just, it’s just, it’s, yeah, it, at the end of the day, it’s just my personal interest. I like that I deal with different, different topics of research every day. Not every day, but every, every, at least every year I deal with different topics. So I just, and- it’s just the opportunity to learn new things that I’m, I’m really, grateful to have in the development world. That you have new research methods coming in and then you have new, new ways to approach a problem. So, so because research and development are definitely intertwined. So you will have this, this academia talk about the new way to, to answer a particular question. So it’s just, it’s just growing. So I like the fact that I’m, I’m, it’s like you go to schools but you are paid to do it. So it’s just fantastic.
Safa: Yeah. Your enthusiasm and your deep interest is so evident in your voice and the way that you talk about about it.
Gracia: Thank you.
Safa: But speaking of new tools and new methods, can you speak to us about some of the newer approaches you’ve been taking in your own work or that you’ve recently learned and that you think are, good or better ways to perhaps go about conducting a research project or designing a research project in the development sector?
Gracia: In terms of math that I’ve been dealing a lot with the, the randomized controlled trial experiment. So if you’re not familiar with that, it’s just basically, so it is similar to what they do with in the medical field. So you give one group a treatment and you don’t give another group the treatment and then you compare whether or not giving the treatment actually produce the same results as if you give the other group a treatment. So in development, it’s at least in Indonesia, because of the fact that we work a lot with Harvard and then with Stanford who are also big with that idea, it just happened that a lot of development experiments in Indonesia use that method. And it’s not a new method per se, but I guess, yeah, not a lot of countries use this method as well because of — you are talking about ethical issue before. So we, there’s, there’s a slightly ethical issue. For example, if you give a program, what are the excuses for not giving the other, the other group, the program — you cannot just give some, you can not deny someone of their, of, of their, right just for the purpose of the, of the experiment. So there’s, there’s some ethical issue involved, but, but usually we deal — we tried to create like a natural environment, natural environment for this, for this method. So for example, if we know that the program is going to expanding, it’s going to expand. So we use the current recipient as the treatment and then we will use the potential recipient as the control. So, so you, you just have to be very careful and play around with, with what works in the field and to, to avoid as much ethical issue as possible. But I guess, um, a randomized controlled trial is still going to be a big thing at least in Indonesia, but now I’ve seen also more and more, um, qualitative approach used. So it’s, it’s between the qualitative and quantitative, I guess it’s, it’s a mix. So I think before, qualitative was — a lot of Indonesian research used qualitative, but then we deal more with, uh, we, we, we basically receive a lot of help from, from researchers abroad and then we try to — and then we use a lot of randomized controlled trial. But now I think there’s a realization that numbers alone is not enough. So they will usually add another, like an in depth qualitative study, a study too, to allow them to understand more about, about the numbers. And, for example, I know this new education research, they are now using the ethnography approach. So they would stay within the field and then they would, they would not interview — they would talk to the community and then see, if they can understand, what is actually going on within, within a certain place by just living as if they are actually a local. So yeah, I’ve, I guess I’ve seen, at least in, in the last two or three years, I’ve seen more of the qualitative study improve instead of the quantitative study improve. So I think the quantitative method is pretty much stable at this in Indonesia. But the quantity, the qualitative actually, improve a little bit throughout the years.
Safa: That’s so interesting. Often people talk about evidence based policy making, evidence based program design, but sometimes inevitably, inevitably, projects somehow fail or they don’t achieve the intended result that they had wanted to achieve. Or even if in the beginning they’re doing quite well over time, they’re not maintained and they’re not sustainable so they don’t have a lasting positive social impact. Have you been part of projects that have had that kind of a similar trajectory or have, have not really done what they had intended to do?
Gracia: That sounds like my current project actually. So like I when I was talking about it and at the introduction, so what we’re trying to do at the moment is we want to, we are hoping that the financial incentive can, can encourage villages to do more fire prevention. But just briefly from what we found so far, we find that, the fire incidents between those who receive the money and the between those who don’t receive the money are very similar. So it will look from the outside that our incentive actually failed. So the money that we are giving to the villages are not, or not motivating them to do more fire prevention and hence less fire occurrence within that village. But, but as a researcher, you will not think very, very simple like that. So, this, this so-called failure will bring out a lot more questions. So the questions that we’re dealing with, we’re dealing with now is, so what do the villages- so what actually happened? So did the village actually do nothing after they received the money? Or maybe they tried to receive the money, but they don’t know how to use the money or maybe if this, it’s about socialization, so they, they know how to use the money. But again, they are, they’re not that, they’re not sure about the requirement of the project or maybe it might be the case that they just have bigger fire this year. So there are a lot of possibilities of why, we didn’t see any result with the incentives. So I wouldn’t say that it’s failure — is just, yeah, well in the worst case, you know, that financial incentive doesn’t work, so you can just move on and use another method for fire prevention. So at least from the, from the research point of view, because our research is a little bit different — so we don’t intend to make, so we are not a big, so we’re not coming in as if we want to encourage fire incentives. So we just want to know whether fire incentives work. So if it works then we can definitely suggest it to the government, so that it can be used in the longterm, but if it doesn’t work then we can move on and find another method to prevent fire.
Safa: You are still learning something even if it’s not what you predicted.
Gracia: Yes. Yes. So, so a good development practitioner will not just plan his ideas, without considering what actually works and what actually not work in, in the field. If you wanna — again, reduce poverty. You cannot say what works — I want to do this method because it works in Brazil for example, and then you just assume that it’s going to work here in Indonesia — you just have to start the project and see whether it works or not. So I don’t think there’s a failure, it’s just a continuous learning process on the ground.
Safa: I would also like to ask you, what profession other than your own, would you like to attempt or pursue if you, if you weren’t in this field, what else would you like to be doing?
Gracia: That’s interesting. So I guess I’ve evolved within the years, within the past 10 years as well. So I did not think of becoming a development researcher just because I didn’t have information, enough information about it. I think when I was in high school, I even thought that you have to be appointed to be able to work in the bank, in the World Bank. So, I don’t know if it’s just because of my exposure, but I didn’t, I feel like a lot of, I mean it’s, it’s probably a normal, a normal thing that everyone when they realize that they wanted to be a doctor and engineer, so I feel like everyone in my high school either become an engineer or a doctor. So I didn’t think about becoming a, a development worker at all. So at that time I actually wanted to become a lawyer and my goal was just simple. That is to train my analytical skill as well as I can. So, and that’s why I studied math as an undergrad. So I think, I guess 10 years ago if I had the choice, I might want to pursue law instead of development. But of course then over time I realized that- I did intern in a, in a law firm actually during my college college days and I found that, that if you have to deal with problems one by one its just going to take forever for me to make a change. But at that time I just had this impression that, being in law , it is just gonna, it’s just gonna take longer for me to make a, make a real change. So I thought if that’s the case, then probably I’ll try policy and then it’s just, it’s, it’s, I would say it’s, it’s merely by coincidence that I found out about, about development world, at least here in Indonesia. So, so yeah, back then it’s either being a lawyer or being a researcher, basically those, those were my two options. So, and for now I’m actually thinking about a career change as well. Not because I, I’m tired of research, it’s just because I feel like I know more and then I have more capacities to do more. So if I have the chance now, so I want, I want to improve, and sell agriculture products from the local farmers. And I, I’ve also got this idea from, from being in the field for too long, I guess. So, for example, um, I went to Kalimantan and they have a lot of yam, like, so basically in Kalimantan- not, not in all Kalimantan — but the specific region that I went in Kalimantan — so yam is like leaves. So it’s just, they’re just everywhere. You can throw one yam and it’s just going to grow by itself. But I realized here in, in, in Jakarta and the capital of Indonesia, they sell yam at a very much higher price. So it’s just, I think it’s my longterm project is that I want to find a commodity, like a commodity within a particular, a particular, area in Indonesia. And I would love to work with the local people and you know, help them brand and sell their products more, more, more valuably.
Safa: That’s so interesting. There are many people I know who have from development gone on to do, establish social enterprises where they help local communities sell a particular product or item. So yeah, I wish you the best with that. Do you have a motto or a mantra that helps you in the work that you do or generally in your professional life?
Gracia: So I guess whenever things don’t go my way or maybe I had to deal with a specific person that just get to my nerves, I would just stay to myself: I do this for the research and this is just work. So basically don’t take it personally. So I guess those are the two principles that I always carry for my development work because you, you have to deal with a lot of people and not, not everyone is pleasant or as pleasant as you want, but you just have to tell yourself it’s just professional, no hard feelings and you just have to move on because you, you’re in this for the research, for the learning and not to please specific person.
Safa: Interesting. Everyone has their own expectations and their own behaviour when it comes to partnership or working with others. So it’s interesting that you mentioned that. Do you find that you often become very emotionally invested in a project? And do you think this is just the nature of working in development and that you work on social issues, you work with communities and that there is a level of emotional investment that is common or necessary?
Gracia: The more expectation you give to yourself and to others, the more emotionally involved you will become. So just because I know this, I try not to — not because I didn’t care about a specific project, but I try to view all my projects objectively, as a research. I, I tried actually one time, so I went to, I went to an oil palm plantation area and I met with the, with, with the local farmers and actually become good friends. So even after I left we were still in touch. And then and then I feel like, you know, I want to do something more and I want to help these farmers. So I remember I saw an, an app for a grant that can be used for, for agriculture practices. So I thought that’s an opportunity for me that I can help these farmers. So I applied for that. For that project- I mean for that grant. I told the farmers that I want to apply for this project. Of course I’m not promising anything, but I can see that they’ve had hopes the moment I told them that I want to apply for this grant and when I didn’t get the grant, I feel like I’ve, I’ve let them down. So it’s, I guess it’s just, that’s probably one example when, you know, I went into research and then I became friends with the local and then I feel like, you know, I have responsibility to do more, but, but I guess — at the end of the day it is just about how you manage your expectation about yourself and about others. So, so you just have to do your best and I think that’s, that’s, that’s, and there’s just so much thing that you can control and you cannot control everything. Basically.
Safa: Speaking of technical contribution, have there been times where you realize that maybe you don’t know something or you just come to the limit of your knowledge on a particular issue and how have you kind of been able to navigate that? I know sometimes it’s difficult to admit that we don’t need, don’t know something, especially if we’ve been hired as a technical expert or specialist. So can you speak to that, to that moment in a project where you realize that perhaps you need external support or you need help or you need to learn more?
Gracia: So I’m not a, so a lot of people in the development field are economists and I’m not an economist myself. I studied math and policy. So although I learned a little bit of economics I wouldn’t consider myself as an economist, but definitely I have to work as if I’m an economist at work. So they are definitely methods that I might not be familiar with. But the good thing is, so I have, I have maybe two occasions where this happened. I have been working for poverty for maybe over seven to eight years. And I get an offer from a trade organization, to work with them. So it’s, it’s a, it’s a really good opportunity. I would love to learn about trade, but at the same time I was scared that I didn’t know anything about about trade but, but then I decided that, you know, I will take a chance and who am I to judge myself when this offer it means that- it means that someone thinks that I can do it. So I, I’ll just, I can take my chance. And I did take that, that offer to work on a, on trade research. And then I guess the first, maybe the first one or two, one or two months I was a little bit, I would say panic because, you know, I, I’m not familiar at all with the term but by the third month I guess it’s just, I realize that in the end of the day, research is just research. It’s the skill sets that I have from my previous job are still applicable. But now it’s just being applied to different contexts. So you still need — have to, you still need to think methodologically. You still have to use a lot of data. But now instead of applying it to a poverty context, you just have to apply to the trade trade issue. So if you already have the right research skills, it’s just a matter of reading more about a topic if you want to switch fields. At least thats what I feel. And it happened, it happened again when I, when I finished my trade project, I got an offer from the project that I’m currently doing, which is on the environment. So of course again it, it’s, in the first month of two I was a little bit lost. I didn’t know anything about the environment and didn’t know anything about about oil palm or local financial system. But again, their are, their are just many sources where you can learn these things from. And then in development, you never work alone. You, you, you almost always have a team. So you, you definitely have someone that you can ask, you can ask from. And then with time if you just — you know, what you have to know.
Safa: What do you think of the role that the international development industry plays in terms of creating social change in Indonesia and are there other industries that you think have positive impact, better impact, equal impact? How do you see the international development industry in relationship to the private sector in relationship to government or whatever else it may be?
Gracia: When you say — I mean you basically separate the, the development actors into three big categories. So you have the international organizations, you have the private sector and then you have the community. But then you still have quite many distinctions within each of the categories. For example, I was working on an oil palm project, about two years ago and I’ve seen the role of private sector — it is very important. I feel like the private sector do things more efficiently, they already have the system set up so they, because because they have profit as their main goal. So they, they try to do everything very efficiently. And it’s actually a really good practice who to imitated in the field. So I always think that the private sector is a huge is a, is a huge part of the development process and I definitely cannot deny that.
Safa: Interesting. Yeah. As you say, even though they are motivated by profit, the methods or the standards of practice that they have might be very successful and something to imitate.
Gracia: Yeah. I think it’s because they want to make profit that they have to be efficient and being efficient is good.
Safa: And it has, it can have an impact, a positive social impact.
Gracia: Yes. Yes, definitely.
Safa: What do you think is the future trends of the international development industry in Indonesia?
Gracia: This type of question is gonna depend I think on who’s gonna rule, within the next five years. We just had an election and I mean, it, it hasn’t, it hasn’t been announced officially, but probably our incumbent president will still rule in the next five years. So if that’s the case, I think, he is going to stick to the priorities that he’s been having in the last five years. And for development it’s getting to be about — mostly it’s not just going to be, well it’s going to be, infrastructure for sure. And then also about stunting. So I think the Jokowi government now realized the importance of tackling stunting and he has been, he has a great attention about, you know maternal nutrition, health and sanitation, all, all of the things that are related to reducing stunting. And I’ve seen a big project, from the central level until the local level to fight, to fight stunting. So I think it’s, if, if things go well and Jokowi is still the president, it’s still going to be a big topic within the next five years.
Safa: Thank you so much Gracia for speaking with us today and sharing your experiences and your knowledge and your reflections. We, we really appreciate you taking the time to do that. And we just wish you continued success in your work.
Gracia: Thank you.
Safa: To our listeners, thank you so much for listening. To keep up with our weekly podcast, please subscribe on iTunes, Spotify, and Google podcast platforms , rate and review our episodes, share with your friends, and you can also follow us on instagram. Our handle is @rethinkingdevelopment. If you have any listener questions that you would like me to ask our future guests, please feel free to email them to us. I look forward to continuing this conversation with you all next week. Until then, take care.
